Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: early M38 questions
Hi all,
I am restoring an early M38 and I have a few questions that I am hoping you can help with. I am planning a correct restoration, not factory but field grade (with radio) and want to be sure that the visuals are correct. The most obvious frame visual is the use of 'rear' lifting hooks on the front behind the bumper.
The data plates and wheel well plate that I got with the M38 appear to be reproduction/NOS late plates (per Ryan's book). They are marked S/N 13265, date of delivery 4-51. The plates are stamped correctly (as far as I can tell) and include the inspection stamp. The previous owner did not do the plates and was of little help. Question - what style dash plate do I use, the early style or the late style. what style wheel housing plate do I use ( the one I got is new silver plate).
Next question. There has been a lot of discussion on the Yahoo forum about painting the frame. My frame is currently in red primer and I want to paint it correctly. Do i do chassis black, then OD (using 24087) over that in a way that mimics what would have been done in the car pool upon delivery. Or is there another way to go.
The intent of my restoration is not for points so much as to be correct and enjoy it with fellow retoration buffs. So all help and advice is appreciated.
1-The right lower dash serial plate on January thru April 1951 M38's only had the year of delivery on them. The earliest black patent plate I have is MC6XXXX.
This would be the style dash serial plate you should have.
This would be the correct style patent plate.
The original M38 frames were delivered to Willys in frame satin black. The word to date is without any primer. Since brake lines and wiring harnesses weren't painted OD it is safe to assume the frames were shot with 2430 (NOT 24087) before the plumbing was installed.
24087 is a new OD introduced around late 1954 early 1955. 2430 was the OD in use by Willys in 1950 thru 1955. 24087 appears a bit more green/brown and 2430 appears more green gray. The closest off the shelf paint to match 2430 is Gillespie's 23070 or AJP's "Late WWII OD". Both of these are just a tad light. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Thanks Wes.
I have that style plate, but mine have delivery 1950. Do you know where I can get a 1951 dated plate. I have all the correct parts, as far as I can tell, but this plate to make my early correct.
Is 24087 wrong, or considered OK. I have started painting parts with 24087, per local help. Do I need to re-do what I have.
I will also look into the paint you mentioned.
24087 is wrong for original coverings. It could be found on replacement parts from other vendors from 1954 on. Again it would only be a biggy on a factory class resto. Personal taste is also a factor. I personally do not care for the very brownish look. It is the earmark of the 1954 to 1965 peacetime Army. Most trucks built from 1950 thru 1955 had 2430 and it had a friendly looking hue to it. From 1965 on in Vietnam and the rest of southeast Asia we rapidly made the switch to the modern od's (more greenish) and the camo's. Of cours the guys who served from 1955 thru 65 like the 24087. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
There is no clear dividing line between early and late M38's. The significant changes occurred sporatically during it's production run. If you have Ryan's M38 resto guide book then you can see all the points that significant changes occur. If one must draw a line in the sand then the biggest set of changes occur with MC53262 Feb 1952 but this can be misleading because there was a quick test run of this new engine block in Dec 51.
Some examples are:
MC17855 last with 6 volt gauges having the ecternal resistors.
MC20599 last with firewall mounted ignition noise filter.
MC20XXX change from 7 digit to 8 digit hood numbers.
MC26272 On/Off plate added to ignition switch.
MC34151 Last with individual data plates fastened directly to the dash.
MC35387 Last two plug Bendix light switch.
MC47771 Last with aux power receptacle on firewall.
MC53362 Major change to engine casting, waterproofing and vent/fording system.
MC65042 Last with CB on instrument cluster.
MC65927 Last with 3 CB's on the cowl battery box.
Many of these changes I have mentioned entailed several other changes at the same time.
The M38A1 lent itself to a clear cut division of early (1952 to late 53), middle (late 53 thru 1955) and late (55 thru 1968) much easier to define than the M38. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Depending on how critical you want to get, the differences are hidden, but critical to those who know what to look for. I have several hours reading Ryan's book closely for the details.
Mine will have the early bell housing and starter, early style distributor housing, early carburator, fire wall mounted filter and electrical plug, 'rear' lifting hooks on the front. I was even able to find a correct M38 engine casting. Had it rebuilt and had it marked as I found it with the original RMC s/n.
I would be very interested in any help finding the correct data plate as shown in photo earlier in this message string. I have some NOS 1950 plates, but not the 1951 plate. This will be the most obvious flaw in my build to those who know what to look for. All other features are correct per Ryan's book and talking to local restoration buffs.
Still struggling with the color. I have a drivetrain painted with 24087 and would like some feedback as to whether I should back up and paint per Wes's paint codes. I have not yet painted the frame and tub, so I could be persuaded into changing.
Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 92 Location: Oro Valley, Arizona
Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject:
Hello Rick,
Mario here, Remember what we talked about concerning color. It can be very confusing. That’s why I choose the late WWII paint as Wess mentioned above. It is all about personal preference while trying to stay true to the historical facts of the Jeep. Good luck. _________________ Mario
U.S. Army
Joined: Apr 19, 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Heart of Dixie
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject:
Rick, I used the Gillispie paint 23070 which closely matches the factory paint on the M38s or at least what is under tags, plates, etc when you remove them.
I decided to continue on the track I was on, as I was fairly far along and did not want to start over.
I have viewed several discussions both here and on the G503 site and basically it comes down to choice, as some who I talked to and on here have said. I also viewed a forum somewhere, can't remember where, which indicated that the 24087 is fairly close to original paint chip color.
Thanks all for your help.
24087 came in about 1955 and was much darker and not close to OD 2430.
2430 is on the left. The two rt cards are 24087. The small cards do not make the actual amount of difference as obvious as a fully painted pair of jeeps would.
This is a little better with 2430 on the left and 24087 on the right.
The confusions presents itself when someone offers the first 24087 paint chip introduced with the new 595 spec book in 1953/54. The GSA folks screwed up and used the old 2430 chip in the new book under the 24087. A change notice was issued with a new replacement card for the set. Trouble is a lot of old FS595 spec books still have the first incorrect chip and card. This led many folks to think the two colors were almost alike. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
That helps to explain why some other posts I have seen imply that the 24087 is close to original.
Thanks again for your help Wes.
It seems that the more I research, the more little bits of information I find and the more I need to make some choices. I am well on my way now and hope most folks will ingore the color as not exactly original.
I also need to be quicker to post questions here to be sure I am going in the right direction.
This is my first restoration, and I am constantly amazed at the amount of detailed information required to do it correctly.
I also just acquired a very clean 1951 M37 with motor and trans missing, but all else is present and very straight and rust free. Can't wait to get the M38 finished and start that.
Wes,
You will be happy to know that George at Army Jeep Parts gave me an earful about my color choice. That was the last straw for me as I have been struggling with this for a long time. I am going back and re-painting the correct color on the M38.
Thanks for your help and I will keep you in mind when I start on the M37.
I will also be posting for help in finding new data plates for an early M38. I went to a DMV satalite office here and was told that the numbers I have are already registered to a trailer. THey seem to think that I will be forced to have a unique AZ number assigned, which I don't want.
You have two choices for your VIn for AZ's DMV. Either 13265 or MC13265.
Are both currently in use? _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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