Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:16 am Post subject: Steering Bell Crank
The pin on my M38 failed above the steering bell crank. The bell crank is cast with #640184 W012C. I got a repair kit, but it appears to be for the later bell crank (?) with a larger diameter pin and bearings. Rather than get the kit for the early smaller bell crank, I think I'd like to upgrade. Do I need to get the "down ball" bell crank? Will it fit without replacing any other parts?
The old pin with sleeve snapped off the threads at the top of the bracket on the frame, then pulled out. Yep, that was a hairy few moments, because the pin came completely out and I lost all the steering going down the road. The pinch bolt was there and tight, but still didn't stop the pin from coming out.
It appears my steering bell crank pin is NOT broken, just pulled out. What I think I have is an M38 7/8 pin bolt bracket on the frame with a shimmed 3/4 inch bell crank down ball system from a CJ2A.
The 7/8 pin is clearly threaded from the top (pictured above). The 3/4 system appears to not be threaded at the top, but only held in place by the through bolt which pinches the shim and bolt, and goes through the notch in the pin. Evidently my shimmed 3/4 bolt just pulled down and out. Perhaps that's one of the main reasons the later models went with a heavier pin and bracket arrangement that nutted at the top.
As far as I can tell there's no way to get from one setup to the other without making major changes up front. You can't make a 7/8 ball up bell crank work with a 3/4 early steering set up as far as I know. I don't think there is a 7/8 down ball bell crank that would just bolt up to what I have. Also, I have not been able to find an adapted combination bolt that necks down from 7/8 (frame bracket) to 3/4 (existing bell crank).
Anyone know what all parts would need to be changed to turn my CJ2A/MB steering mechanism to a correct (and hopefully more robust) M38 set up? Drag Links? Pitman Arm? Are those parts even available?
That all sound correct? _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
Joined: Nov 01, 2011 Posts: 201 Location: Escondido, CA
Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:49 pm Post subject:
I think your assessment is correct, except what I found is that 3/4" ball-down is MB and only early CJ-2A. Appears that late 2A and later, plus M38 and M38A1 all used 7/8" ball-up. All the correct part numbers for the M38 can be found in the Controls section of the ORD 9 parts manual, downloadable from this site. If you can find the equivalent for the MB, you should be able to use the WO (Willys Overland) numbers to cross-check and determine which parts are different. Note that two different diameters of tie rod tubes and ends were used on the M38, which accounts for the multiple entries in the ORD 9, but I think the entire rod assemblies are interchangeable. I see, on a vendor's website, a different drag link and bell crank listed for MB/early 2A than for M38/late 2A-on, but tie rods being the same for all (except larger diameter on M38 service and M38A1), so I think all you will have to change is the drag link and bell crank. And, yes, those parts are available. _________________ Jim McKim
1952 M38 son-father project
Slowly turning rusty parts into OD parts
The MB system differs completely from the early CJ2A system. The MB system used a bellcrank mounted on the top side of the front axle housing and it's tie rod connection was a double female hole set-up that accepted the two tie rods separately.
Early CJ2A up thru SN 199079 (Summer/Fall 1948) Used the down ball bellcrank and steering connecting rod (drag link).
The late CJ2A up ball bellcrank is the same PN as the M38 WO# 647008.
So if you have a 19 3/4" left tie rod assy and a 24 1/2" right tie rod assy you will only need the bellcrank and it's hardware and the steering connecting rod (drag link) and it's hardware.
I had a CJ bellcrank, shimmed pin and civvy drag link. New bellcrank and drag link installed. Now I need to re-index the pitman arm to reset the turning radius for full travel. Any shade tree methods to remove the pitman arm in place? I haven't been able to get it off the splines to re-clock it with the steering wheel centered.
Thanks for any suggestions! _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
Pull the engine and use a gear puller on the pitman arm. Or pull the steering box and use a puller on the pitman arm. You could try heating the pitman arm while cooling the gear box. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Wes, I tried method 3 without luck, was contemplating method 2. Then my buddy noticed that the right tie rod was run almost all the way in, and the left tie rod was run almost all the way out. So we re-clocked the bell crank arm and the pitman arm by re-setting the tie rods.
While we were doing that, we noticed the toe in was about 3/4 inch. Bet that's a bit much! _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
Sounds like you are trying to rig your steering backwards because you were unsuccessful at removing the pitman arm to index it correctly with the steering worm at the midpoint of it's travel. Any attempt to rig steering this way will leave you with less turn circle in one direction and more in the other. If the lack of equal left vs right steering is fine with you then you could just leave it at that but there is still one small problem being overlooked. The steering shaft cam or worm is skinny at the center and thicker as you steer away from center. This helps center the steering back to center as you drive. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Thanks Wes. Appreciate the explanation of the steering mechanism centering. Yes, the problem has been the radius difference, which is almost nil, but not fully symmetrical, after the tie rod arm changes.
Can I unbolt the box from the frame and just rotate it enough to get a gear puller on the pitman arm in order to re-clock it on the splines? _________________ ------------
Matt
1951 M38
If you haven't had the cover off the steering box to see the condition of the worm, guide pins and bushings/bearings now is the time to do it. Remove the steering wheel, remove the horn wire and raise the front wheel high enough off the floor that you can get the column out. Take her to the bench and do it up nice. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
If you haven't had the cover off the steering box to see the condition of the worm, guide pins and bushings/bearings now is the time to do it. Remove the steering wheel, remove the horn wire and raise the front wheel high enough off the floor that you can get the column out. Take her to the bench and do it up nice.
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