Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:56 pm Post subject: f134 oil flow woe
I rebuilt my engine, and tried to make oil pressure. I primed the oil pump with Vaseline when i assembled, and a few weeks later, aka yesterday tried to turn for pressure. Filled the oil filter and pan, got nothing. Then back feed all the lines and the block galley with oil, still got nothing, could hear it going into pan through galley. So i pulled the pump and found there was two gaskets between cover and bottom, also a bit of Vaseline still in it. Removed extra gasket, and primed pump with oil and installed. Also believe gasket between pump and block was blocking a hole, so i did liquid gasket. Now i get oil pumping into the oil filter, when i kick the starter. Even with the filter now full, i have no oil pressure and getting no oil to rocker. What could it be now ? Can only think of trying to back feed into block again now that the pump is pumping into filter. Pump flow into filter is very low, wondering if should remove last gasket on bottom oil pump cover for less clearance between pump gear and bottom for better suction ? Am tempted to hook spark plugs back up and spray carb starter in, try to get engine to fire for a second to get a good spin on the pump, kinda kick start pump, very Leary though with no oil pressure right now. Any input would be appreciated.
I did use a hand pump to prime. Curriose why I am getting oil to filter but not rocket or pressure. Also, my 1/8 front bolt in pic is stuck on, was priming through throttle spring bolt.
Not knowing the recent history of this engine the cause could be several things. If this engine was a recent overhaul and assembly the assembler may have missed the restriction items, a bearing clearance may be excessive, a passageway may be plugged, the spray bolt at the front of the block for the sprocket lube may be missing and if you are relying on the original electric sender oil pressure gauge it may be wrong! I never pre-oil or crank up a fresh engine using that gauge. Always connect a direct reading gauge for maintenance checks! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
OK, after a lot of back priming, i have narrowed problem to the out port on the block that goes to rockers. Hand pump primed, and oil would basically not go in. I did some research and saw that port goes to the rear main seal. My main seal is really tight, i couldn't turn crank by hand once rear was torqued correctly. A mechanic buddy said that's ok, it will wear in once engine running. Am i correct on this or misread the schematics on oil system ? Also should i run motor to wear the seal in, and that may help oil flow ? I have flow to the filter and the outlet to the oil gauge pumps oil as well.
Before going any further I would remove the line to the oil press sender and insert a manual reading gauge.
There are several brands/styles Plus Military surplus rear main seals. Is yours preformed or rope type?
You should still be able to rotate the crank with rods and pistons installed with a new rear main seal. One that is very hard to turn is going to give you grief.
Did you say you cannot move oil up the top oil tube or down? _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
I think if know what issue is. Used some of the liquid gasket like manual says, to help seal the rear main cap, and i think used a little too much. When i torqued the caps down, think some went into the oil passage. Yes there is no oil going up to rocker. Basically impossible to back feed any oil into that external port on the block itself. And that port is feed from the rear seal.
Joined: Jun 15, 2014 Posts: 268 Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 5:00 am Post subject:
Saberr wrote:
I think if know what issue is. Used some of the liquid gasket like manual says, to help seal the rear main cap, and i think used a little too much. When i torqued the caps down, think some went into the oil passage. Yes there is no oil going up to rocker. Basically impossible to back feed any oil into that external port on the block itself. And that port is feed from the rear seal.
What oil passage do you speak of? I just put my engine back together and really hope I didnt seal this passage as well. However I used very little liquid gasket.
Brad _________________ 1952 M38 project
Brad
If you restrict sealant application to the end edges of the rear main seal and the parting surface of the cap at the two rubber tube seals then I find it hard to believe any other rear crank passageway got sealed shut. The hole at the rear seal area of the cap is a drain hole.
This is an L134. The F134 has one more 1/8" Pipe threaded port next to the rear most in this photo for the top oil line. This port is not fed from the rear main seal area.
Leave this nozzle off and you will not develop a lot of oil pressure.
That large blade on the crank just forward of Item 20 separates the rear Main Seal from the Rear main crank journal & bearing.
Those two oil ports in the rear main cap and the single port in the rear main saddle are all pressure ports for the rear main bearing and have nothing to do with the rear main seal.
The large dark area bottom center of the cap is the drain well for the rear main seal. That groove is filled with the blade on the crank which keeps the rear main seal isolated from the rear main bearing. The two oil pressure ports in the cap are not connected to the rear seal in any way. If you inadvertantly covered these two ports with sealant you definately fouled up.
From your info and the extra block i have, i discovered the rocker is feed by the port (outside far right, upper port) that goes to the last camshaft nook. Cam has one hole through it to pump ? oil to that port. It seems that input port (lower one ) to the cam shaft nook is feed by the rear main bearing. I'm thinking the upper rear main bearing is off a slight bit, or something is blocking that upper port. When i back feed the outside upper right port on block today, oil did come out of that camshaft nook, and it took a lot of pressure to put any oil in. Also when i took bearing cap off, there was oil on bearing, so i think its just that little passage between two.
OK, THink i found and fixed the issue. I ended gutting the engine. All bearings were good, and no blocked passages, which is good. What i found, was that it seemed the cam shaft was too far in towards the back . Since it was too far back, the hole in the rear of the cam shaft never lined up with the hole in block, and the upper rear bearing hole. Since they never lined up, it never pumped oil. Lined camshaft up and got oil from the bearing to the out port for rocker when i hand pumped oil from upper rear bearing. Assembled engine , and will test tomorrow after work. Have my fingers crossed.
Joined: Jun 15, 2014 Posts: 268 Location: Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:50 am Post subject:
Wow. If I worked as fast as you I would have my M38 on the road already.
Good luck today and let us know how it turns out
Brad _________________ 1952 M38 project
Brad
What i found, was that it seemed the cam shaft was too far in towards the back . Since it was too far back, the hole in the rear of the cam shaft never lined up with the hole in block, and the upper rear bearing hole
Just a heads up the cam only fits one way. If it is too far back that usually means whomever installed the cam gear hammered it on instead of pulling it on with the bolts. This results in the welsh plug at the rear of the rear cam journal getting pushed partially out of the block which will leak oil when or if you get her running
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