Joined: Mar 22, 2017 Posts: 301 Location: Great Mills, MD
Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:55 am Post subject: The M38A1 "Generation" Thing
Hi Guys,
Ok, so I'm trying to understand this M38A1 "Generation" thing. Hinged grille vs fixed grille, 8 screw batter box cover vs strap cover, front fender design. In looking at the SN database (which was a royal PITA to download) and seeing where my jeep fits in. It's a '55 with fixed grille and 8 screw battery box cover. Hey......it doesn't fit in! There are a couple others in the list from '55 that have the screw on battery cover, but most use the strap cover. Why would my jeep still have the 8-screw battery box cover when the design was changed two years prior? Did they lose track of a few tubs at the factory that had the 8 screw holes for the battery cover and suddenly find them in a back room 2 years later?
I'm being sarcastic, but seriously......I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how this occurred. Assuming my jeep isn't a "hacked together from junk jeeps" POS, which I see no indication of.......why were some jeeps in '55 still made with the old battery cover? Help me understand this. Weren't the A1's all made in the same physical factory?
You sarcastic statement was right on. It is a hacked together jeep that was either tub swapped during it's military career at a depot overhaul or after an accident or after that in the civilian world.
At this rate you will go crazy within a year or two if you don't just accept the fact that most jeep survivors have had a lot of parts switched in the last half century! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 3:01 pm Post subject:
Hi Bob,
Further to what Wes is saying.
I remember reading something in MV Magazine that essentially said,"It's only new once."
A factory Class restoration is a real challenge.
I have an early 1950 M38. Most of what is left points that way, including the frame and tub. It has the later reinforced block, later rear engine plate and bell housing, and a newer transmission. Did Bubba do that?
Tacked on the side of the block is a rebuild plate from the Pueblo Ordnance Depot dated 7-55. So the Army did it.
They didn't care that the tub serial came from the factory with a different block, et al., but they just knew they needed to get this rig back up and running to fill a hole. So they grabbed an engine/tranny assembly off the floor that had been reconditioned and stuffed it in, marked it up, and called it good.
To me, getting it back on the road is job number one.
Number two is try and bring it back as some semblance of a vehicle still in the service, but motor pool, meaning it has things that have been changed since it rolled out of Toledo. That makes it unique.
Because it's still a Willys M38, but it has enough character that was instilled by the motor pool guys to make it just a little different than every other one out there.
Finding all of those little details is like peeling back an onion, and can be fun.
Joined: Mar 22, 2017 Posts: 301 Location: Great Mills, MD
Posted: Mon May 08, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject:
Ah..........so I'm starting to understand now. I wasn't thinking along the lines of whole tubs being replaced. What did it take for the military to actually junk a jeep? Or maybe you're saying they never junked them, they just kept piecing them back together, over and over.
So with all this mixing and matching going on what marked component defined the jeep's serial number? Frame number?....data plate?..... If they swapped tubs did they transfer the data plates as well? Hood numbers too? It sounds like hood numbers would move from jeep to jeep, and not stay with a vehicle for its life, like on the M37. Did the frame numbers not matter in tracking these vehicles?
This is all very interesting. Wes, it won't drive me nuts once I understand the mindset. I think it's a pretty cool concept. Like everyone disassembling their rifles and throwing the parts in piles. Then just grab a part from each pile and put you rifle back together. Of course this is all Eli Whitney's fault!
Ah..........so I'm starting to understand now. I wasn't thinking along the lines of whole tubs being replaced. What did it take for the military to actually junk a jeep? Or maybe you're saying they never junked them, they just kept piecing them back together, over and over.
Actually they never junked them. They were either:
1- In service
2- Out of Service
3- Surplus to unit needs. This category is where they leave the military, running and driveable, not running and not driveable or salvage.
Quote:
So with all this mixing and matching going on what marked component defined the jeep's serial number? Frame number?....data plate?..... If they swapped tubs did they transfer the data plates as well? Hood numbers too? It sounds like hood numbers would move from jeep to jeep, and not stay with a vehicle for its life, like on the M37. Did the frame numbers not matter in tracking these vehicles?
The hood number was the only number the motor pool made sure stayed with the jeep's motor pool record.
I have asked each member at one time or another : "How do you know for sure the jeep you are sitting in is the jeep that left Willys with those two serial number plates in the tub?" It's not rocket science. The plates are NOT riveted in and there was no frame number from Willys. Most owners claiming they have frame numbers on an M38 are just confusing the frame rail sub-assembly part number for a frame #! Yes M38CDN's were stamped by the Canadian Army on top of the left front frame rail with their CAR #. Yes many depot rebuilt M38's had the hood # stamped on the frame at the depot. Willys DID NOT STAMP ON FRAME SERIAL NUMBERS ON M38's!
What happened with data plates was always a different story almost every time.
Sometimes at a depot rebuild:
1-The dash serial followed the hood number to the end.
2-The dash serial and the patent plate followed the hood # to the end.
3-The dash serial and patent plate never made it to the end.
4-Sometimes there were not enough salvageable frames at a depot rebuild center to produce the same number units out the door that went in the door!!!!!!!
How do you answer this question now???
How do you know for sure the jeep you are sitting in is the jeep that left Willys with those two serial number plates in the tub?"
All the above occurred in the military under a very disciplined book keeping type maintenance system!
Now let that M38 rest in 3 or 4 sets of civvy hands with the civvy need for titles and registrations which require serial numbers not hood numbers. Can you guess what lengths these civvy owners went to to insure they had a serial number for their title!!!!! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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