Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1910 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:24 am Post subject: MZ-4113 Starter Questions
My M38 converted to 12V. I have what I believe is a conventional CJ-2A/MB starter set-up, using what looks like a MZ-4113 6-volt starter that has a 9-tooth pinion gear and a 97-tooth flywheel. As far as I can tell, it works well. Every once in a while (1 out of 25 starts or so) the bendix will spin without engaging the flywheel. I removed the starter to inspect and count teeth and they all look good.
Research here says a 97-tooth flywheel needs to mate with a 10-tooth pinion, but I found that both RFJP and Walck's web sites advertise that the MZ-4113 can use either a 9 or 10-tooth pinion with a 97-tooth flywheel and they're interchangeable. This is the only place I've seen this information. The Willy's Service Manual says nothing about it that I can find. I don't have a CJ or MB Parts Manual.
I lucked out and have a nice MZ-4113 inbound for a spare at a great price. It has a 10-tooth pinion on it.
Does anybody have any experience or evidence that either a 9- or 10-tooth pinion gear will work equally well on a 97-tooth flywheel?
Your advice always appreciated! _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
No. They are not interchangeable. I have all the mentioned tech manuals and all say NO. If you mismatch one or both sets of teeth will suffer. One dealer saying otherwise is a seller who wants to unload his wares weather they fit your needs or not. Have him give you the tech manual reference that says a 9 or 10 tooth starter pinion will legitamently interchange for use on a 97 tooth flywheel. Don’t settle for “Oh many of my customers have told me that.” _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1910 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:15 am Post subject:
Thanks Wes. I know there's a lot of mis-information out there. I think you'd agree that sometimes it's hard to see the nugget in all the b.s.. Especially for us rookies.
What to believe? I certainly respect your knowledge. I count on it. And I'm well aware of the wrath I might get for asking this....... but before I call Mr. Walck or Mr. Fitzpatrick and ask them to point me to a manual backing up their claim --- could you please give me some ammo by telling me which manuals you have that say only a 10-tooth will work? _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
You have their opinion and mine. I told you each applicable manual only lists on applicable starter pinion with each different flywheel tooth count. I have no intension of getting into a pissing contest with dealers. Seems Brian has determined Pete is the dealer and now you have added two more dealers. Just ask them to show you the tooth FAX!
I would hope you have already reviewed the manuals specific to your situation and if you did then you already know they only list one. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1910 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:41 am Post subject:
Wes, I said in my original post that "the Willy's Service Manual says nothing about it that I can find. I don't have a CJ or MB Parts Manual."
I'm not trying to instigate any kind of contest between anybody. I respect opinions, but am not after opinions so much on this question. As you've taught me very well: if it's not in the manual then it doesn't exist! (or words to that effect).
I'm simply trying to ask for help to identify the pertinent manual or manuals that specify the 10-tooth pinion on a MZ-4113 starter motor.
I have a Willys Universal Service Manual and can find nothing about pinion and flywheel tooth counts. Doesn't mean it's not there. It means I can't find it. I wouldn't have thought information such as this would be obscure or hard to find, but apparently is.
I'm willing to buy any manual I can find that shows it. And I guarantee I'm not going to use it against anybody. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1910 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:38 pm Post subject:
Crickets? ..... did I step on my crank (shaft) again?
I was thinking that my question is a little off-topic for M-series so maybe I should take it over to the folks at the G503 forum? (also a great knowledge bank). Not sure about the CJ-2A forum.
Reluctant...I notice the minefields at the G can sometimes be just as thick to navigate as here. Lord, it's tough being a wookie.
Gotta love that Benny Dover cartoon over there --- no doubt a classic piece of work..... _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Does anybody have any experience or evidence that either a 9- or 10-tooth pinion gear will work equally well on a 97-tooth flywheel?
Since you already have a 10 tooth MZ4113 in the mail to you why not just wait and tell us what difference you see between the two drive pinions.
Quote:
I'm simply trying to ask for help to identify the pertinent manual or manuals that specify the 10-tooth pinion on a MZ-4113 starter motor.
I have a Willys Universal Service Manual and can find nothing about pinion and flywheel tooth counts. Doesn't mean it's not there. It means I can't find it. I wouldn't have thought information such as this would be obscure or hard to find, but apparently is.
I'm willing to buy any manual I can find that shows it.
Here in lies the problem. There are no manuals that answer the entire question in a single manual or a single page.
You said you researched our web site. Then you must have seen this photo in my album:
Note the 2004 date. 14 years ago I sat down and spent several hours researching and photographing for that simple defining piece on what starters go with what flywheels. All that information was published in about 20 different manuals. But, keep in mind that my illustration covers all the Willys L134 & F134 starters from 1941 thru 1971. 6, 12 & 24V. Did you notice at the bottom I listed two starters for the MB/GPW/CJ2A. You are suspecting you have a 6V MZ4113 when you probably have the 12V MZ4124. They look identical however they differ in a few internal parts. Mostly the field coil setup and the drive. The MZ4113 uses a EBA46 drive and the MZ4124 uses an EBA78 drive. These drives are 10 tooth.
Many starters have several applications. On different applications the same starter may use different drives. Not only is the tooth count restrictive in these applications but the diameter of the pinion and the distance the center of the pinion is from the flywheel ring gear all have a major impact on what works and what will give you grief.
There are no manuals that answer the whole question of Which drive is used with which starter and then with which flywheel and what are the tooth counts of each.
So let's start down the road with the MZ4113 in a WWII MB or postwar CJ2A .
1 - Look in the vehicle's parts manual (I use the 1949 G503 manual since it was the newest printed and the 1949 CJ IPL current thru 1954) and determine what part no. flywheel is used in the engine section. Find that part number flywheel and measure it and count it's teeth. Since several flywheels show up you should note that they all use the same ring gear PN 635394 97 tooth.
2 - Look in the same manuals for the starter part #. Voila they both use the MZ4113. Now look at which bendix drive the MZ4113 lists. Voila EBA46. Now look at an EBA46 and count it's teeth. Voila 10 teeth.
Deduction of fact from this research shows the applicable manuals show only one ring gear 635394, one Starter MZ4113 and one bendix drive EBA46 applicable to the L134 engine installed in a 41 thru 48 Willys MB or CJ2A.
References:
Willys Master Parts List copright 1950 with updates and changes thru 1954
ORD 9 SNL G503 dated October 1949.
Auto-Lite IPL dated 1948 with updates thru 1964.
Just one corner of my library!
1948 Auto-Lite IPL
1948 Auto-Lite IPL
1948 Auto-Lite IPL MZ4113 uses only one drive EBA46.
This is a EBA46 Bendix 10 tooth drive. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1910 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:03 am Post subject:
Thank you Wes. You have exceptional patience and ability to clearly connect-the-dots, at least for knuckleheads like me. Much appreciated. None of us will ever have a library like yours (I doubt even the Library of Congress has those titles). They really should be put on CD, but I realize that's much easier said than done.
Yes, your 2004 photo of flywheel comparisons was the main reference I was using. It's a gem. I didn't doubt it, I just couldn't verify it with my manuals, which surprised me as I thought it'd be common and easy to do. Then when I came across the bum-scoopage that a 9-tooth pinion was interchangeable I really got hung up.
I now stand firmly convinced that a 9-tooth pinion on a MZ-4113 is flat wrong because there are manuals that clearly prove that a 10-tooth with the EBA46 Bendix drive is the one and only correct configuration.
Once I get my new-to-me and hopefully correct MZ-4113 and look it over, I'll take a few side-by-side photos to post and install it.
You said the starter I have is probably a 12V MZ4124 ? It has no data plate on it. Is there some distinguishing feature why you say that? I thought the MZ-4124 was a rare bird.
I think I'll send it out for a re-build as a spare anyway, and have the correct EBA46 10-tooth Bendix drive put back on it. I think I'm going to keep it original 6V rather than make it 12V. Research says putting 12V to a 6V starter on a well-tuned and maintained jeep presents no problems? I guess I should know better by now? There's nothing in a manual that says doing that is ok. Is this urban legend true?
I've had my fill of dealing with unmarked bastardized parts. Don't want to pass one on to the next guy.
Thanks again Wes. You are a gentleman and a scholar. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3447 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:00 am Post subject:
And again for clarity, though I’m not sure how this got twisted...
I do not buy from only one vendor. I deal with about five, all of whom I have purchased from in the past.
I have had email and telephone conversations with all of them, and have been happy with the products and services they provide.
They all provide some products, but none provide all, and there is plenty of overlap. So at times I have the ability to shop.
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Lord, it's tough being a wookie.
