Joined: Nov 02, 2007 Posts: 437 Location: Seguin, Texas
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: Exprienced opinions needed
Okay.....time to defer to the voice of experience.......I have several questions regarding tub repair:
1. I need to replace my front floor boards. I've looked at two different methods.......one with two seperate panels (one for the driver's side and one for the passenger's side) and a seperate gas tank well... and another with one complete assembly that goes from one side of the jeep to the other. Which of these results in the best restoration? Which is easiest? Any "definitely don't do this" pointers?
2. I need to replace my hat channels completely. Since I am also replacing the floor boards how difficult is it to get the channels into the right place? Do they make a template for this or is it all based on measurements? Are they welded directly to the floor or bolted? Can the life of a hat channel be prolonged by welding a heavier plate of steel to it where it rests on the frame supports?
3. I would also like to replace the floor board in the back of the jeep. Is this practical as I have not found anyone who makes a replacement for this?
Anyway.......any advice anyone has to offer here about tub repair would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
1. I need to replace my front floor boards. I've looked at two different methods.......one with two seperate panels (one for the driver's side and one for the passenger's side) and a seperate gas tank well... and another with one complete assembly that goes from one side of the jeep to the other. Which of these results in the best restoration? Which is easiest? Any "definitely don't do this" pointers?
Full one piece is better and easier. However this is true for a NOS front floor assembly built by Willys/Kaiser. If using an MD Juan floor panel there will be errors.
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2. I need to replace my hat channels completely. Since I am also replacing the floor boards how difficult is it to get the channels into the right place? Do they make a template for this or is it all based on measurements? Are they welded directly to the floor or bolted? Can the life of a hat channel be prolonged by welding a heavier plate of steel to it where it rests on the frame supports?
Hat channels will be the same as above. They are tack welded in place only. Originally had white oak wood inserts to prevent crushing of the channel. You are suggesting they're a short life component when in fact most have lasted a half century or more under hard use.
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3. I would also like to replace the floor board in the back of the jeep. Is this practical as I have not found anyone who makes a replacement for this?
Have you tried Jeep Panels Plus for the rear floor.
Some important things to understand.
1-The tub must be supported in it's correct shape by tack welding steel angle strategically to the tubs perimeter to keep it staright during panel replacements.
2-Only remove one panel at a time. And take many photos and all measurements before you cut or remove anything.
3-Check frame for proper alignment before fitting hat channels to tub. The frame alignment procedures and specs are in the body/running gear manual. If it needs to be straightened now is the time to do it.
4- When tub is complete less hat channels you place the tub above the frame (secure it there so it is above the frame a distance equal to the thickness of the new hat channels combined with the correct thickness for each tub mount pad rubber. and line the rear edge of the tub with the rear edge of the rear cross member. Then mark all tub bolt locations on the bottom of the tub. Now roll the tub over and lightly tack the channels in place. Now put the tub back on the frame aligning the rear edges and installing the correct thickness rubber pads and shims at each tub mount. Now you can see what if any corrections or adjustments are needed for the channels. When all is correct tack weld the channels using the original spacing copied from the old ones.
5-Finally to fit the tub, temporarily install the tub on the frame with all the correct shims and rubbers in their correct positions. Now fit the fenders, hood and grill for alignment checks and adjustments. When satisfied then make things permanent. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Nov 02, 2007 Posts: 437 Location: Seguin, Texas
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: Yes
Correct.....this is for an m38a1.....and basically what I am trying to determine is what have you guys learned from all your cummulative years of experience when it comes to replacing floor panels that you can pass along. I am pretty much a rookie when it comes to these jeep things....and while I find it fun and interesting....for the kind of money its going to take I want to have at least a good expectation that I will be successful. So these "errors" that might occur.....are the something that can be worked around.....and/or do they end up being worse after the repair then before? For instance......your comment regarding the hat channel having a white oak insert.....I actually found some wood under my tub and just assumed it was put there by the previous owner trying to lift the tub back up off the frame after the channel rusted away. Now I know that was not the case. So do you put oak inserts in with the new hat channels? And I was not trying to insinuate that the hat channels were short lived components.......only that on my body they are pretty much rusted away right up to the floor.....which does make them relatively short lived compared to the rest of the tub. It looked to me like the channels rust quickly because they are rubbed bare by the frame mounts and hence subject to the rusting. Now that I find out they had wood inserts which probably trapped moisture inside the channel I can see why they rusted first. What I was attempting to do with the plate steel was weld a thicker bearing plate on the hat channel in the area of the support to provide more metal to rust away......more metal equals more time in my mind anyway.
Regarding the rear floor board.......no, I haven't tried them.....do they have a web site?
The rest sounds pretty logical and straight forward. Just one more question......how are the frame mounting points secured to the hat channels? Are there bolt heads under the hat channel with nuts below the frame mounts.....or vice versa?
Thanks again for all the help.....as you can tell....its sorely needed!
Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: Panel replacement
I have replaced dozens of floors and hat channels with far less involvement than what Wes is suggesting. You do not need to tack weld anything to the body to maintain the shape or stability if you do one panel at a time. If you purchase a quality panel, no tack welding is required. The factory did not tack weld anything, it was spot welded.
The hat channels are very easy to install if a quality part is purchased that fits properly to start with. There is only one location for these parts, and there is no need to reset the body on the frame to align these parts if you purchase a quality part to start with.
I would be glad to discuss this with anyone needing panels or just advise on the how to's.
John
952-440-8778
It does not hurt to temporarily place the panels and then fit to the frame just to make sure everything lines up.
I replaced the back half of my M38 in a similar fashion to what Wes describes.
Most of the sheet metal panel replacement work I have done is on vintage mustangs, on those you have more things to align (doors, trunk, etc.) with the main body.
On another note, I should be back in the states in March! I will be glad to get out of Afghanistan and have regular internet access again. _________________ Ryan Miller
MVPA # 22010
Well John, you are a VERY experienced PROFESSIONAL restorer and our Idocrates is an amateur so we need to help him protect his time and investment as best we can. In my experience a really poor tub is distorted before it is removed from the frame. Therefore it pays to establish and lock in the correct shape of the tub before you start replacing one or five panels. This can be done by squaring up the tub from it's top edges and either TACK welding rod or angle stock to keep it that way or build a jig. This is cheap insurance in a non-commercial restoration shop.
A frame dimensional check is mandatory for the amateur and the pro. It is foolish to build a tub and try and fit it to a bent frame.
Forgive my use of the words Tack and Spot interchangeably. In my opinion they are the same and can be done with a machine, a wire feed, a torch or stick welder.
When the entire front floor is gone hat channel positioning is not quite as automatic and fool proof as you imply.
Finally "How simple or difficult" any of the above tasks are depend on one's qualifications, the original condition of the project, the tools and equipment at hand and of course the quality of the materials.
For me I have found the job fairly simple but I have been at since the 60's. But when I try to offer sound advice to an inexperienced amateur restorer who wants the best bang for his buck and his time using his meager facilities, tooling and experience I like to be help them avoid expensive errors. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Nov 02, 2007 Posts: 437 Location: Seguin, Texas
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:44 am Post subject:
Oh yeah....and that's me.......the inexperienced amateur........but I sincerely appreciate the opinions and advise from both sides of the fence. I realize there is no one single correct answer to these types of questions....especially on a vehicle that has seen over 50 years of hard service.....so it helps tremendously at least to know what to look for and what to expect. Easy is relative......just like difficult is.......so in the end.....while everyone's mileage may vary.....we all just learn to do it "our own way"....and hope for the best. Thanks again for all the good advice.
I think it is ok to tack weld if you don't have the spot welder. You work with what you have. _________________ Tropical Veteran
35th Inf. Reg. "CACTI" 4th I.D. VN
Amateur Radio K5XOM
With a little patience you can duplicate the appearance of the spot weld machine's tack using a torch or wire feed. Of course it helps to have the tub on a rotisserie. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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