Joined: Mar 28, 2008 Posts: 353 Location: BrOoKlYn
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: clutch failure
yesterday at a stop sign, I engaged the clutch and "SNAP, CRACKLE, POP"!!!!I had it towed to a tranny shop for inspection as I lack the means and time to do such a repair and let alone hoist the powerplant out of the chassis. Fortunately, the mechanic their has some experiences with the Willys CJ2 and 3 ., We both suspect the clutch plate exploded because there is no spring back or drag on the clutch pedal whatsoever.
I am taking it upon myself to obtain parts for him. Has anyone a suggestion/s on the kits offered by either of the esteemed vendors and points to consider upon instructing the mechanic that will be pulling her apart?/ ... the going rate for a mechanic hourly here in Brooklyn is 80. hourly . I'm gettin scared.
If the mech has experience with the Willys 4 cylinder then he knows he can pull the inspection cover and view the pressure plate and the thrwoout bearing/fork. There may be nothing wrong with the clutch or pressure plate. He should have by now declared to you the condition of all the external linkage. If he is absolutely sure the external linkage is faultless then his next step is to expose the clutch. He should know you can do it from the bottom tranny end or the top by pulling the engine. If he has a lift and tranny jack he should have no problem pulling the tranny/transfer and bell in about 1.5 to 2.0 hours. Then decide what parts to order. NOT BEFORE! 2.0 max to inspect and install new clutch and 2.0 max to rea-assemble. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Mar 28, 2008 Posts: 353 Location: BrOoKlYn
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:55 am Post subject:
WES, JUST TO CONFIRM ... It's easier/quicker to pull from tranny aft to access clutch then to pull engine out? also, the pressure plate dia. is at 8-1/2" for a 1955 m170 ? Will be inspecting the lot tomorrow. I thought wise to order the whole kit; pressure plate, clutch, pilot bushing, T/O bearing and carrier, springs, fork, so on.. might need to turn the flywheel since the drive-train started shuddering in reverse before the clutch (or whatever) blew out. Just out of curiosity, are there any after-market clutches and pressure plates out their for the f-134 ? the pins on the auburn assembly as designed on the stock pressure plate looks questionable.
If you are at home without a lift it is easier to pull the engine. If you have a shop with a lift it is just as easy to pull the transfer and tranny.
I have never had any stock or cheap replacement clutch disc blow up behind a stock Willys 4 cyl. You have had an unusual occurence and you should look very carefully at everything before putting her back together. I personally feel any US built clutch kit will perform just fine. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Mar 28, 2008 Posts: 353 Location: BrOoKlYn
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: clutch failure- "UPDATE"
well, it seems the release lever clips upon the pressure plate somehow worked it's way off somehow. we found them at the bottom of the bellhousing when we took it apart!! also the clutch fork seemed to have disengaged and got really bent up tumbling against the pressure plate rotation. When we pulled the pressure plate off. we noticed the clutch plate was heavily glazed and plenty of what appears to be gear oil throghout the interior of the bellhousing, presure plate and throwout bearing housing.
-Removed the bellhousing and cleaned it out thouroughly
-removed Flywheel and inspected for wear.
-surface was pretty good and wear was minimal. seemed like a light glaze of dry oil on the non-contact portion and light surface honed by hand with a course 2" scotch-brite wheel just to give it an even surface.
-pulled out the trans pilot bushing and replaced with new as press fit
-removed input shaft cover
-replaced felt seal
-hand cut new gasket and re-installed with permatex liquid gasket coating on trans side only
Will be reassembling new clutch, pressure plate, and throwout bearing in the morning. the new pressure plate has those same clips ( )
whats the recommended bolt torque load for the following:
- trans to bell
- input cap to trans
- flywheel to crankshaft...(manual states 35-41 # )
- bell to motor ?
the shop is charging me around 600 without parts. and I'm getting my hands dirty with them.. guessing a hands on lesson ain't cheap these days. nor is the use of a nice shop lift..
thanks. tom
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 19 Location: Lower left corner of Virginia
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:18 pm Post subject:
Just my 2 bits and it may be worthless, but i'd be trying to find out why the oil got in there. If there is another problem you will burn up the new disc in a heart beat if it get's oiled. Do you think the felt seal was the culprit? I've done dozens of clutches, just not a willys, it seems like an odd issue.
A _________________ '43 MB
'46 & '48 CJ2A
'69 Coronet R/T
'75 CJ5
and counting...
Joined: Mar 28, 2008 Posts: 353 Location: BrOoKlYn
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject:
well, I think that felt seal gets old and heated up with friction after time thus rendering it rigid the old oil oxidizes within it due in part by the friction of the input shaft. I ended up packing several layers of felt from what I could use because of the unexpected and did not have a replacement off hand. Oddly enough, the manual states " ..slide new input shaft bearing cover oil seal (AA) (rubber side first) and bearing cover (Y) onto input shaft (BB).
I've not seen or have ever heard of this " rubber seal ". I observed a rebuild of the t-90 years ago and it was always this 3/8" thick felt ring seal with a chamfer on one side and no rubber attached.
Personally, I believe this is acting as a wick and deflecting as well as harboring the gear oil to lube the shaft and input bearing. the culprit I find is the gasket that lies between the input shaft cover and tranny case and possibly the copper washers that are attached to the allen cap screws to the input cover. going to try putting a little permatex on those screws.
There was quite a cake of oil throughout the interior of the bell-housing.
Joined: May 09, 2009 Posts: 19 Location: Lower left corner of Virginia
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject:
Well it sounds like you are all over it. My point is leaks=death. Just as a thought I hate buying a new set of goodies, like a clutch and then find a stupid leak after I smoked the new parts. Actually that really pisses me off. I'm not sure what shape your jeep is in, but I think there is a view port on top of the bellhousing that, if you leave the shifter boot and cover off you can check pretty easy over the next few rides just to make sure. Maybe not, just trying to help, probably sound stupid. Anyway, i hope it all worked out well and didn't break the bank. I have several clutch units either on a motor or laying around. Gonne poke aropund and look for rubber seals or any patterns in crud build up or leaks. I will say from the era in general and the design for sure, these bad boys are gonna leak. They are like the AK-47 of vehicles, loose and simple. The up side is easy to fix and reliable as heck. Un til you break a piece it fires up and runs. Please keep posting your results so i can learn and apply.
Thanks,
A _________________ '43 MB
'46 & '48 CJ2A
'69 Coronet R/T
'75 CJ5
and counting...
Joined: Mar 28, 2008 Posts: 353 Location: BrOoKlYn
Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject:
your metaphor is right on point, the design of these gear boxes were the extent of what technology had at the time. therefore, leaks. I suspect there maybe some solution using a higher grade rbber like "Viton" or "EPDM" to furnish a worthy seal, but time is not a luxury for me. she is my daily driver. I think though, a little oil seepage through the input shaft to the throw-out bearing helps. but then again, as you said. oil on clutch is +death. A chattering clutch wreaks havoc from bearing to bearing, gear to gear.....ultimately, clutch failure and god knows what. will post a follow up with some pics hopefully tomorrow post assembly and test drive. I know a few of us enthusiasts can use the info and assessment.
The tranny has an arrangement for an oil retaining washer behind the input shaft bearing. Which if not assembled correctly leads to leaks. The felt is more of a dust seal then it is an oil retaining seal. You must lightly oil the felt before installing it to insure it doesn't heat and melt from the shaft friction.
If you don't open the tranny and resolve the oil loss issue now you will most likely be doing all of this again sooner then later. Oil soaked clutches were not part of equation even 60 years ago.
E) Place the oil slinger on the input gear with the outer offset away from the bearing. Press on the new front bearing. The side closest to the outer snap ring groove goes out. Take care to prevent grit or other contaminates from getting in the bearing. Install the widest snap ring available in this retaining groove. This snap ring comes in 5 widths. Install the gear and bearing assembly in the case. Install the large snap ring on the OD of the bearing
This Rick Stiver's rebuild guide even suggests the use of a sealed front bearing:
http://www.cj-3a.com/T-90%20Rebuild.htm _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Not at all surprising based on your discription of the failure.
One question that hasn't been asked. Are you sure it was gear oil or could it have been engine oil? The reason I ask is there is a welsh plug (freeze plug) at the rear end of the cam's last journal bore. If someone gets carried away with the timing gear install and hammers it on (this is a big NO-NO) then the welsh plug usually gets knocked loose and you get a serious engine oil leak above the flywheel. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Mar 28, 2008 Posts: 353 Location: BrOoKlYn
Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject:
Pardon my late reply Wes. There was no indication of leakage from the welsh plug. to the best of my knowledge from performing vacuum, compression, and leak-down test, either the motor was rebuilt "right on" or in "stock" condition with no rework.
Only indication of a leak I found was a small- built up body of what appears to be sootish-hardened oil below and around the rear main. This had the consistency of hardened wax. I opted not to disturb it. The remaining area was dry and not tacky.
Eventually, I will replace that rear main seal.
Exterior wise, I have evident oil leakage coming from the rear of the oil pan and rear engine support plate.
Might you know where I might find a comparable copper Gasket for this plate that is married to the support plates 4 - Hex cap Screws? and should there be a strip gasket between the rear mounting plate and support plate? thanks again
Exterior wise, I have evident oil leakage coming from the rear of the oil pan and rear engine support plate.
Might you know where I might find a comparable copper Gasket for this plate that is married to the support plates 4 - Hex cap Screws? and should there be a strip gasket between the rear mounting plate and support plate? thanks again
The oil pan gaskets shrink with age. The pan needs to come off and have it's bolt holes peened back away from the block so when you install the new gasket tey apply more pressure to the gasket on each side of each bolt.
Not sure what you are calling "rear mounting plate and support plate" but what I call the rear mount plate is bolted between the tranny and the engine rear crossmember. If you are referring the bellhousing adapter plate and the bell housing then yes there is a gasket there but the only way oil can leak from the plate is from the rear main seal, the pan or the cam welsh plug. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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the going rate for a mechanic hourly here in Brooklyn is 80. hourly . I'm gettin scared. 
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