Joined: Jun 21, 2010 Posts: 195 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:25 am Post subject:
Major519 I think you have solved the main question, the 5/8" tie rods in question are in fact the 3/4" tie rods and the larger tie rods 11/16" are for the M38A1 jeeps. A slip of the vernier caliper and your ¾” becomes 5/8” inside the threads. That solves one question; the remaining question is the tie rods themselves. They come in two different diameters one thin and one fat. (Not unlike the drive shafts on WWII jeeps)
JasonM I would order the smaller dia. tie rods for your M38.
The question I see remaining is what is the reason for the tie rod diameter difference? Was there a change at some point in production, or was it a US/CDN thing?
JasonM I am sure you are doing one heck of a job on your restoration. Saving a jeep from obscurity by using parts from many to make a complete jeep that will be back up and on the road one day is a good thing. With a set of original data plates and a correct CDN frame, at the end of the day you have in my mind a correct motor pool M38CDN. I consider you one of the good guys. This is better than letting the parts go to the scrap yard or just rust away.
Joined: Dec 09, 2010 Posts: 90 Location: Nipissing Ontario
Posted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject:
Hate to differ with you Wes, but why do Willys Acres, PDJP, AJP etc all list 11/16 and 3/4 tie rod ends??? They indicate small thread or large thread, please specify when ordering...
Clearly there must have been a changeover somewhere.
For the record, I checked out my M38A! CDN3 and it has 3/4 tie rods ends throughout.
I have no idea where those vendors get their 11/16" and 3/4" figures for tie rod ends. All of my M38 and M38A1 tie rod ends have 3/4" thread size. The tie rod tubes I have are either small 7/8" OD or large 1 1/8" OD. and both sizes use the same 3/4" thread size. No where can I find any dimension equal to 11/16". Perhaps their 11/16" reference is for WWII and early CJ.
It certainly makes more sense to me to ask them where they got their numbers from then to ask this board to speculate on where they got their numbers from. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Apr 23, 2008 Posts: 92 Location: Kansas City
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:24 am Post subject:
Is this not the same issue I brought up on 19 Apr 2011, with a subject titled "M38 Tie Rod Ends"? _________________ Bill
GP, GPA, GPW, M38, M38A1
Bantam T-3, M100
MVPA #1196
Joined: Dec 09, 2010 Posts: 90 Location: Nipissing Ontario
Posted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:43 pm Post subject:
Without the book right in front of me, I was heard that the M38 used one size and the M38A1 used another. Possibly, tie rods and tube could be used interchangeably between the two models so a fellow could end up with a mix and match on his jeep. I will check whe I get home into the master parts book to see what the specs are.
The lengths of the tie rod tubes are slightly different between the M38A1 and the M38. The M38 came with the small tubes 7/8" OD. The M38A1 came with the large tubes 1 1/8" OD.
The ORD 9's show the M38A1 tie rods and ends as service replacement for the M38 but you must use the M38A1 rods and ends together because they are 3/4" threaded ends and tubes. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Jun 21, 2010 Posts: 195 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 7:58 am Post subject:
If they are both the same diameter, then what is Ryan talking about in his book? Is the book wrong? (Pat, I corrected that above they are 11/16" threaded for original M38)
The vendors offer two different diameter tie rods and the book mentions two different tie rod diameters.
I would think that there was a change in the M38A1 somewhere that changed from the smaller diameter tie rods to a larger, stronger tie rod for some reason. Did the change happen with the M38 also or was this only with the A1?
We are missing something here gentlemen, let’s see if we can run this down. I will be reading my manuals tonight to see if I can find out when the change happened. I have a vested interest here as I am restoring a M38 for my wife at the moment and will soon need some answers to get this one as correct as possible.
I have both a thick and thin tie rod and both take the 11/16” tie rod end, Ryan’s book and the venders both state that there are two different size tie rods ends. That would mean that there are “three” different tie rod tubes out there, I will be checking my pile of tie rod’s to see if I have the larger 3/4” tube.
MB/GPW have the tube listed as WO-A-1709 left @ 14 ¾” length and WO-A-1705 right @ 21.80” length.
Tie rod ends are WO-A-847 tie rod end left and WO-A-838 tie rod end right, no diameter given. I believe these are 11/16” dia. same as the smaller size listed in Ryan’s reference book.
M38A1 lists WO-642058 for the left tie rod and WO-642059 for the right tie rod. Ends are RH-THD 8239743 and LH-THD8329742.
M38 does not use the “WO” number, the tie rod left is 7375332 and tie rod right is 7375331. The tie rods are RH-THD 7350354 and LH-THD 7371107[/b]
Pat, you are missing some info there when you are quoting parts list numbers.
For the M38 start with the ORD 9 dated November 51 which list itself as current as of AUG 1951. It only lists one set of tie rods and ends period. This is our earliest ORD 9.
Notes:
1-This is MB and M38 end 11/16" diameter at tube.
2-This is MB and M38 end 11/16" diameter at tube.
3-This is CJ end 11/16" diameter at tube end
_____________________________________________________________
From the ORD 9 dated Sep 1955 we find the same set of tie rods and ends listed which are also listed to be serviced with the replacement later CJ ends which are still 11/16" threads at the tube.
Then the ORD 9 lists the M38A1 axles SP# 2166-1 and 2166-2 , with 3/4" threaded ends and tubes as an approved service replacement for the M38's original SP# 2131-1 and 2131-2 axles.
So the bottom line is all M38's left Willys with Spicer 2131-1 or 2131-2 axles which came with the 11/16" threaded ends and tubes.
Then in the field the later M38A1 Spicer 2166-1 and 2166-2 axles with 3/4" threaded ends and tubes were an approved service replacement. But you had to be sure to use the M38A1 rod ends with the M38A1 tie rod tubes.
Joined: Jun 21, 2010 Posts: 195 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 8:34 pm Post subject:
Thanks wes for clarifying that post, I am not the best with manuals. I was reading up on the tie rods and ends today and that is what I came up with from the CD that I had. (At least I tried)
That pretty much puts it in a nutshell for everyone.
One small question I do have and I am not trying to pick this thing apart any more. I have two different diameter tie rods that both take the 11/16” ends. The question is would it be correct to install the larger diameter tie rods on my wife’s M38?
I guess it could be a later field mod to have the bigger tie rods?
I am painting it US Air Force Strata Blue with the original US markings however it is an early M38CDN. I realize this is not completely correct; however I like this idea better than completely converting it to CDN and not using the correct makings for a US jeep. I think the Strata Blue will be a nice finish and make it just a bit more unique than an OD jeep.
I guess it could be a CDN jeep that was “loaned” to the US at the US run radar listening station here in Nova Scotia. This would have been at CFS Barrington near the southern tip of the province. CFS Barrington was part of the Pinetree Line and was run by the US from 1957 till the early 60’s when Canada took over.
The MB tubes are 1 1/8" but taper to 1" at the threaded ends and use the 11/16" tie rod end.
The CJ (I have 46 2A, 60 & 71 CJ5) tubes are 7/8" and use 11/16" ends.
The M38 tubes are 7/8" and use 11/16" rod ends.
The M38A1 tubes are 1 1/8" and use 3/4" rod ends.
Looks like you may have a pair of MB tubes. Their length differs a lot from the M38. The MB tubes are 14 5/8" and 21 5/8" vs the approximately 17" and 19" M38/M38A1 tubes.
I don't see it doing any harm to run the larger tubes.
What are the lengths and OD's of your two large tubes that have 11/16" rod end threads in them? _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
We have an M38A1 with some tie rod measurements not described so far in this mail thread. The tie rods are 1-1/8" o.d. The inner ends are 11/16" left-thread, while the outer ends are 3/4" right-thread. The tie rod lengths are 17" and 19".
Do you think we should keep using these tie rods, or find some that are 3/4" threads on both ends?
Where did these come from anyhow? Was this an early production phase between the M38 and M38A1 designs?
I'm a bit old fashion. If it isn't broke don't fix it. As for correctness I doubt you'll ever see a judge at an MV event measure them. If you ever have a need to repair or replace parts later because of a maintenance issue then I would consider converting the whole set to the correct standard items. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2
Page 2 of 2
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
The plot thickens 
