Joined: Apr 03, 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Chester County, PA
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:32 pm Post subject:
are the brackets that I was talking about that were not stock.
Ryan:
You are correct. The tub wont mount when the fenders are on correctly, and vice versa.
1. Impossible. We know the previous owner, he is my dad's friend -- has been since they met in CAP in the 70s. My dad drove a lot in this EXACT M38A1. He was even there when the previous owner decided to restore the jeep, and helped him start dissassembling it 25 years ago. He only had 1 M38A1, heck, 1 jeep for that matter.
2. I can believe the tub had some damage, but it never got into an accident when the previous owner was driving it around, which goes back to the same point that all of this fit years ago. In otherwords, all of dents and dings that were in it when I recieved it were there back when my dads friend and my dad were driving this around. And if it fit with all of those dings and dents years ago, it sure as $&% is going to fit now.
3. Just got back from checking the frame for squareness. It IS square.
Wes: I dont have those brackets. I thought I did, but I can't find them. I know the data I'm giving you is conflicting, that's why its soooo confusing!! I can't understand it myself.
Now here is an interesting find. My dad decided to space the body out a little more from the tub right under the gussets, since the fenders and tub werent perfectly square. So he stuck a broom stick under thre, and now the tub / fenders are a little more square. Overhangs a little bit in the back still, but guess what? -- We can see a little bit of the mounting holes in the floorboards!! Just about a quarter inch togo to get the holes to line up perfectly....
I'm going to shoot something if all of this is because of rubber pad spacing...Can anyone send me a picture of what kind of spacers go under the certain mounts? Diagrams on my CD manual are crappy at best, and I can't find my paper 8015-2 (left it in my moms car one day, she cleaned it out -- and god knows where it is!).
In other news, I tried to line up my steering column. As I was doing that, I flipped it on its side and noticed water was coming out. Rusty water. My gear box was rebuilt 25 years ago and never used by the previous owner.
After saying a couple of curse words and fearing for the worst, I started disassembling it, and it turns out it isn't bad. Seals were totally shot, but the grease did a good job protecting the metal from the cup or so of water that got in it. _________________ Bob Collins
1954 M38A1 MD79056
Last edited by Bob_C on Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Those outboard reinforcing angles were not Willys installed.
You should probably slow down a little and get the parts manual out and take a long hard look at the list of cushions and shims on pages 316 thru 318. Their length, width and thickness are clearly listed there. Their numbered front to rear with #1 the front vertical units that bolt to the side of the frame. 2 & 3 are the brackets on the side of the frame under the front seat area. 4 is right in the top of the frame rail where it curves up to the shock mount, 5 is the one in the cargo bed with the round carriage bolt and 6 and 7 (inner's & outers) stretch across the rear crossmember.
Then lay out all your rubber parts and hardware. Lay the tub on the frame. Install the shims and cushions. Now start the #1 mount bolt loosely. Now try to get each successive mount bolt at least started into it's hole.
Now with the tub still LOOSELY attached temp fit the front sheet metal. Now using a lot of patience slowly snug bolts up while watching carefully how each mounting position tends to move or bind. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
I just looked in the SNL for the M-38A1; all the rubber pads are just pieces of rubber 1/8" or 3/16" this with dimensions of 1 1/2" X 3" with a hole in the center approx 1/2"... The section for body pads is Section 1801 in the SNL... look at it carefully as it also lists some shims made of rubber for certain places and thicknesses.
I went thru this section for the M-38 really slow and made my pads and then got the bolts, washers and nuts. then slowly placed the parts on loosely like WesK suggests and it all came together...
In your last photo of the rear mounts that looks like a piece of channel instead of the regular rear cross member, it may have been replaced prior to your friend having the jeep. Mine was, I am glad to have the channel as it is stronger.
I agree with WesK also, you need to slow down and take a break for a day or so, read the SNL and find what you need to mount the tub, then gather your parts and go from there, it took me working alone a half a day to get my tub on correctly, I had to undo bolts a couple of times due to they were in the wrong places (Wrong bolt for the location)...
I still have some 1/8" rubber sheet if you need some and can get more very easily, my supplier sells it by the pound...
Take a deep breath, step away for a day and get a clear head... We all have been there and know the feeling... (after a beautiful January with temps in the 60-70 range, winter has decided to return 40-50 range for the next two weeks, I just wish the rain would come... no real rain since October) I need to paint some parts and now need to fire up the heater in the garage for them to dry properly...
Don't be surprised if you need thicker or thinner shims and cushions then the originals.
Right side rear
Right side front. You really need to find those strap brackets.
Left side front.
I'll have to find the rest of the photos that were in this set. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Apr 03, 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Chester County, PA
Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject:
Thanks Hal, Wes, and Ryan. Maybe I am getting ahead of myself. I just thought after the tub went on it would all be simple, no problems. I got the rubber antisqueek stuff thinking that was the only stuff that went on there...and never really paid much attention to the shims and stuff...never thought it could cause this. But after seeing that adding that broomstick under there, it seems it all wants to come together with a little more spacing. See, I told you it was going to be something stupid!!
Heres a reply my dad got from his friend that owned the jeep.
Quote:
Hey Bob,
After thinking further about the jeep assembly problem I still do not have a viable answer as to why the fenders do not fit. In fact, if my recollection is correct, the front edge of the hood did not protrude forward of the grille top as much as those hoods on the CAP jeeps (which is opposite of your present situation). I think I just figured it was a nuance of my particular hood.
From our discussion it sounds like the only thing different relating to the re-assembly of the jeep is the grille hinges. I would look at the hinges again and maybe even try putting the original hinge/parts on just to see if it makes any difference.
All of the jeep parts have been stored together in the same environment, same temperatures, and same amount of time so I would not imagine there would be any metal expansion coefficient affects going on, and at no time that I am aware did any of the parts come close to reaching the speed of light thus changing shape. If the reason for the misfit does not arise perhaps it is one of those random situations in the universe which can be used to reinforce the theory of 'Quantum Mechanics'. I apologize for not coming up with a legitimate solution to the situation. Let me know what you find.
Bob, just noticed in your photos that you have a full floater rear axle. Did you do this mod yourself? Are you planning to install rear hubs? _________________ Chuck W.
Dixie Division MVC #002
1952 M38/M100
M274A2
1964 CJ3B
Joined: Apr 03, 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Chester County, PA
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject:
Hi Chuck,
The previous owner did this mod amoung a few other things. These full floaters have never been used even though they were installed new 25 years ago. So I figured I would keep them. Besides, it doesn't make much sense to me why Willys didn't have the rear axles setup as fullfloating -- which was another reason to keep it.
All of the parts are identical to the front wheels too -- which makes it sweet. The other thing different is the axles (have to be longer), and the cap that goes ontop of the hub. It has to be remachined for the splines for the new axles (unless you get axles that have the same spline setup as the original).
My axles are not original. Infact, the differential is different (not the casting -- still original dana 44). The differential doesn't have to be different to do this mod, but while the previous owner was redoing that, he installed a TruTrac Positraction differential (again, never used). It is my understanding that this one was "top of the line" when he bought it since it doesnt have a setup of clutches inside like most positraction differentials did (maybe they still do, Im unsure.) _________________ Bob Collins
1954 M38A1 MD79056
That's a nice mod. If I was going to use a jeep for a daily driver, I'd have this mod, and 11" brakes. _________________ Chuck W.
Dixie Division MVC #002
1952 M38/M100
M274A2
1964 CJ3B
Joined: Apr 03, 2005 Posts: 271 Location: Chester County, PA
Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject:
Yup, got the 11inch breaks too. Again, I didn't install them, but the previous owner did. I still have the 9inchers if I want to convert back. But I feel a little more safer with 11 than 9.
Springs are a little different too. Same number of leafs, just lifted 2 inches I want to say. Still have the old ones if I ever want to convert back. I was *this* close to converting back, but the original springs would have taken a little bit of work and probably a bit of cash to get back to any sort of condition to put back on the vehicle -- and the new (higher) springs were still in the box, never used, everything a-ok. Even though it will sit a little higher, 2 inches is really not that bad. I'm sure someone like Wes could tell from a mile away I had the non-original springs on , but it's not like it looks like a rock crawler. I doubt any non-MV person could tell the difference.
I'm trying to keep everything mostly original. If I ever want to go back to a totally 100% original restoration, they're easy fixes -- and I could no problem go back. _________________ Bob Collins
1954 M38A1 MD79056
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