Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: New guy, Hello
Just wanted to say Hello, and introduce myself. My name is Justin. I live in NW Ohio. I just bought this M38 a few months ago. I have a few other CJ's, this is my first military jeep. I do not know anything about them. I'm looking forward to learning more about them and learning more about the one I bought.
The title says its a 1951 M38 Willys. It has no dash plaques, plates or info on the dash. I have sanded down the hood and did not have any luck finding those numbers. All I have been able to locate is the patend plate behind the passegers seat, covered in paint.
I bought the Willys from a neihbor down the road who bought it just to flip it and make a few bucks. He got laid off and sold it to me to break even. He told me that he bought it from a guy in Ohio that used it as a hunting truck in Virginia. It has not ran in 5 years. The mortor will turn over. The gas tank doeas not leak but has alot of rust and junk in it. I have not got ahold of the origanal orwner yet.
I have not fallen in love with it yet so be honest with your opinions and information. Here are a few pictures.
The patent plate can be cleaned up with Dot 3 brake fluid. The Dot 3 will lift the paint right off without damaging the plate or it's anodize. The numbers are etched very lightly in the plate so do not use any abrasives on it.
That is a stock M38 arctic top. That verticle windshield comes with it. The stock windshield is angled aft at the top.
Brush guards are missing from the headlights.
Aftermarket external front parking lamps where the original Black Out front lamps went in the recessed openings in the grill.
Incorrect driver's side mirror.
The tailgate looks like it has the reinforcements for the gas can carrier and the spare tire mount. Also no name center.
Two sets of aftermarket civvy tail lights on it.
Common civvy fabricated trailer hitch in place of the original military pintel hook.
Looks like the correct driver's seat on the shop floor.
Aftermarket locking front hubs are handy to have.
The only items on the dash that are original are the windshield hold downs, glove box, hand brake and ignition switch.
The under seat passenger side tool box has been cut out.
The air cleaner is stock. The rest of the induction and the carb are not stock.
Horn is not stock.
Wiring looks like a civvy conversion.
Looks like 12 volt starter, alternator and civvy distributor, wires & plugs.
PCV valve is missing.
Original Cuno oil filter installed.
Except for rust gas tank looks ok. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
1. How much will I be able to find out about this M38 without the dash plaques? All I have is the patent plate numbers and the title.
2. In your opinion do you think it is worth fixing up or should I sell it and start with something better? If I sell it what would you estimate the value?
3. Is the arctic top worth anything? I think that I would rather have a normal windshield.
4. Any advice or things to worry about before I try to get it running for the first time?
Joined: Apr 18, 2005 Posts: 458 Location: Rhode Island
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:14 am Post subject: M38
Your patent plate will show the S/N of your jeep. Also take note of the serial number on the engine (flat deck facing up to the rear of the water pump. It will start with MC or RMC if it was military supplied. The dash configuration is post s/n 34k putting it after about September '51 production but only the serial number will zero you in on the most likely production date.
Your top may have a manufacturers ID plate on the drivers door at elbow level below the window.
Also look for telltale signs (or remaining sellable pieces) that your jeep may have had a personnel heater kit bolted outside on the cowl in front of the driver and a powerplant heater bolted below the passenger fender and step.
For questions:
1. How much will I be able to find out about this M38 without the dash plaques? All I have is the patent plate numbers and the title.
*What is the serial number on your patent plate? Title data often is different from the serial number MCxxxxx so the Patent plate and engine serial numbers are as close as you will get to understanding the production date. There are also some subtle clues through the production of the M38 that will help narrow down the date of production.
If your engine serial number fits with the patent plate (they do not match) there is a good chance you will be certain of dates.
2. In your opinion do you think it is worth fixing up or should I sell it and start with something better? If I sell it what would you estimate the value?
* Tough question. Without knowing more about the condition of the engine, transmission, body sheetmetal, frame condition, overall completeness etc it is impossible to answer. "Fixing up" can range from cleaning the fuel tank, ignition and firing it right through a nut and bolt restoration to show condition. Running, rolling, stopping restoration candidates seem to run $1000-$2500 depending upon the area in the US and the small detailing included with the jeep. More completely gone-through jeeps go up from there. Start looking through the classifieds of this website and the G503 website and you can get closer to understanding where yours will fit as-is or with some work.
3. Is the arctic top worth anything? I think that I would rather have a normal windshield.
* Depends upon locaiton and time of year. I had one for sale for a long time with no takers but did trade it with someone who needed to move a pile of old military radios. They sell up north. Shipping them is a problem but they do break down to a flat
4. Any advice or things to worry about before I try to get it running for the first time?
* Change the oil, clean out the filter bowl, pressurize-prelube the lubrication system, remove plugs and drop a little oil into the cylinders turn the engine over by hand, check the coolant level , be sure you have a fuel system that doesn't leak, check that your clutch is not frozen to the flflywheel, roll it outside, keep a fire extinguisher handy.
1. How much will I be able to find out about this M38 without the dash plaques? All I have is the patent plate numbers and the title.
The dash serial and the patent serial were the same number. You'll hear guys that have seen them not the same and will swear they came from Willys like that. Ignore that kinda talk. Clean off your patent plate, give us the number on it, complete the survey form I sent you and we can tell you all there is to know about your M38 other than it's military service history. The military did not release wheeled vehicle service records when they surplussed them out. The records were destroyed.
2. In your opinion do you think it is worth fixing up or should I sell it and start with something better? If I sell it what would you estimate the value?
My comments above were based on viewing the dozen or so photos you had on your photo site. Every M38 that still rolls and has 80 percent of it's body is worth restoring to someone. You will need to give us a lot more info and detailed close-up photos for us to be able to offer up an appraisal.
3. Is the arctic top worth anything? I think that I would rather have a normal windshield.
They sell from $100 down south to $600 up north. $600 would be one in great shape, complete and good paint/glass and a buyer in the same town.
4. Any advice or things to worry about before I try to get it running for the first time?
Get a note book or tablet that will stay with the jeep. Note your inspection findings and test measurements and etc as you inspect the jeep. Keep a digital camera handy to produce photos of trouble areas you may want to ask questions about.
Start by inspecting the engine very closely. Bore inspection, insuring valves all open and close freely, perform a compression and/or leak down test on all four cylinders. Open carb by removing air horn and inspect interior for corrosion, foreign material, plugged passageways, float and inlet needle operation and condition. Drain all oil and inspect what falls in the bucket. Service it with some straight 30 weight oil. Remove the distributor cap and inspect the inner parts for corrosion and any damage. Look for stuck mechanical advance weights, point contact condition and setting. Look inside the distributor cap for evidence of excessive carbon buildup or tracking. Check all wiring condition. While plugs are out clean and gap them. Check plug wires against position and firing order. Check static ignition timing for the proper 5 Deg BTDC setting. You may have to hunt for the timing marks and clean them up. Pull the top off the Cuno oil filter to make sure the insides are clean, corrosion free and will rotate freely. Clean any old oil out of the filter blades and the bowl. It would be a good idea to inspect the thermostat to make sure it is heavily corroded or the retainer is not rotted away. If all check ok then add coolant and let her set a while then check for a drop in coolant level. Remove fuel line at fuel pump inlet and with the tank open blow the line out. Get that fuel tank professionally boiled out before you use it. Inspect that carb induction tube and the air cleaner for trash and other foreign objects. Loosen the fan belt and spin the water pump by hand. Listen for a squeaking bushing or note any looseness. Spin the alternator pulley by hand and listen/feel for bad bearings. Check for what type oil pressure sender or direct tube is installed and it's condition as well as the water temp sender.
Once you are satisfied with the above items then move to the tranny and transfer. Make sure that shift ok. Check the level and quality of gear oil in them. Put the transfer in 2 hi and the tranny in 1st. Try to roll the jeep. It should resist any movement. Now depress the clutch and try to roll the jeep. It should roll freely. If not free the clutch up. Check both front and rear diffs for gear oil level and quality. Check brakes and steering. Inspect under dash wiring. If you are still satisfied with the inspection process then connect a battery and look for smoke or excess heat. If ok then turn on one electrical component at a time. Once satisfied that enough of the electrical system functions correctly to risk starting the jeep then pull her out of the garage, have a real fire extinguisher handy and start her up.
This may sound like the long way around but trust me if you believe restoring a jeep should be fun then why start out by frustrating yourself with many problems popping up during the first attempt to start her up?
Do the homework first then the fun will begin. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Apr 18, 2005 Posts: 458 Location: Rhode Island
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:55 am Post subject: serial number
How much will I be able to find out about this M38 without the dash plaques? All I have is the patent plate numbers and the title.
The dash serial and the patent serial were the same number. You'll hear guys that have seen them not the same and will swear they came from Willys like that. Ignore that kinda talk. Clean off your patent plate, give us the number on it, complete the survey form I sent you and we can tell you all there is to know about your M38 other than it's military service history. The military did not release wheeled vehicle service records when they surplussed them out. The records were destroyed.
To be clear:
Patent Plate and Dash Plate had the exact MCxxxxx serial number when the jeep was built. These are your best sources of information for your jeep at this time. Your dash plate is missing - Look to your patent plate for the information you want.
The engine serial number will not match the data plate (& patent plate) serial number. But, if your engine is an MC serial number and fits within the accepted range to cross check with your patent plate number you can make a reasonable assumption about the manufacture date.
What have you found on your patent plate?
What have you found for an engine serial number?
Many mixmaster jeeps exist where engines, ID plates, bodies etc have all been swapped. Only you can decide what has been in place and what has been swapped based upon fasteners, evidence of original pads etc.
Thanks for the help. Its going to take me a few weeks to get through all of those checks but I will keep you guys posted. I only get a couple of hours a week to tinker around with my fun stuff. The rest of my time is family and work.
I will start filling out my survey while I am inspecting and getting her ready to run. The first time I looked at the survey it seemed a little overwelming. This inspection process should make it easier.
I could not find the engine numbers behind the water pump. Under the dust and dirt the block looks like its painted blue. Do you think that they were milled off during a rebuild or am I looking in the wrong place?
The serial number on the patent plate is the same as my title. It is MC58584. Did you say its good that they both match or should they not?
Would I be able to have a set of correct dash plates made with only the serial numbers or do I have to do alot more reserch?
I am sure by now you have realized how simple it is to move these data plates around. Four simple screws on each and for the later M38 four rivets on the screw on main dash panel. No frame numbers were used by Willys either. Engine serials were sequential to engine production and were not matched to jeep serials. There is no way to absolutely ascertain beyond any doubt that any data plate on any M38 was originally installed on that M38 at Willys. So anything we do a half century later to ascertain our jeep's pedigree is an estimated and presumed attempt at sorting out what we see on that jeep today.
You have no dash serial plate.
You do have a patent plate with the number MC58584 which matches your title.
You have a Willys L134 with no serial on it.
You have a survey form that is capable of determining a date of manufacturer, within reason, based on what is found during the survey.
What we know at this point is:
You have an M38 which appears to be MC58584. This serial had a DOM of MAR 1952.
You have a Willys L134 that may or may not be original to this jeep. The
ONLY WAY to determine the pedigree of your engine is with the serial that Willys placed on the pad above the water pump. No serial then no way to prove what jeep, truck, wagon or power unit it came in originally.
As you can see we do not know a lot yet. The survey will enlighten us as to weather or not your M38 is indeed a MAR 1952 unit.
Did you say its good that they (serial on patent & title) both match or should they not?
Yes it is good that they both match.
Quote:
Would I be able to have a set of correct dash plates made with only the serial numbers or do I have to do alot more reserch?
You should first complete the survey and email it back to me. Then once we ascertain the DOM of the jeep we can proceed with determining the validity of the current serial number and then decide what style plates and contract numbers to use.
The past actions that can bugger up a reasonable determination of a jeeps pedigree are:
1-Plate swapping done in error while it was in the military.
2-ID changes that happen during a complete government overhaul.
3-Tub swapping later in the jeep's life after the military releases it.
4-Attempts by prior civvy owners to legalize the jeep by buying paperwork and plates from another jeep. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
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