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willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - Orphan Data Plates
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Orphan Data Plates
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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 1887
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:39 am    Post subject: Orphan Data Plates Reply with quote

My M38 came to me without an original master data plate. And the patent plate on the passenger fender well is original for a M38A1, serial number MD63816 --- obviously wrong for a M38 and I've since removed it. I have no clue at all what my M38 serial numbers are and never will. Even the motor was decked.

I recently bought a M100 from a gentlemen who had also just sold his M38. He had a loose master data plate for M38 serial number 34904, and a loose M38 patent plate MC23247. Not a matching set, but I acquired both from him anyway.

I haven't been doing this very long, but here I am with 3 orphaned data plates. I'm guessing there are a lot of orphaned plates out there --- and jeeps without them. I'm just thinking out loud here, but if there was a list of orphan data plates (I couldn't find one) maybe the members could more easily swap them around to get a matched set for their jeep?

I'm mindful of Wes's story where the young soldiers were sent out to the motor pool on Friday morning to collect data plates and in their rush to get on liberty that afternoon does anybody think the plates made it back to the jeeps they came from?

Which leads me to a question for my circumstances with my M38. If I could find a matching set of an original master plate and a patent plate, and if I mounted them to my M38, would that be much different than the soldiers in the motor pool? I know the odds are high against any mated pair of plates that I could put together being true for my M38, but they also could be (nobody could prove they weren't). And I'd feel better too. Orphaned plates being put back on a jeep it belongs on, not stuck in a drawer or nailed to a garage wall somewhere.

I bought my M38 on a Bill of Sale and South Carolina had to assign me a VIN in order to title it, point being SCDMV doesn't care what data plate serial numbers are on it. I realize not everyone is in the same position.

I appreciate the comments and advice. I'd be interested in seeing an orphaned data plate list if there is one.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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4x4M38
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Joined: May 30, 2014
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Location: Texas Hill Country

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,
Were you able to recover your hood (registration) numbers?
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Brian
1950 M38
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wesk
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Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Common sense says it shouldn't make a darn bit of difference.

But in your heart you will always know they are not original to the jeep.

Usually when the state DMV assigns a VIN # to an old vehicle missing it's serial number they require that vin # to be prominently displayed on the jeep. So one can assume they would prefer you not display 2 or more serials making life difficult for the highway patrol.

So, I would make sure I am not in violation of the SC statutes before I add several new serials to my jeep.

On a different note you will notice that we have been discussing two entirely different animals here. The serial numbers referred to came first. All cars had a manufacturer's serial number on them and all the states used that serial number either off the body or the engine to title and register the vehicle. Then comes the federal government which suddenly felt that by associating automobile production with interstate commerce they could open a whole new field of regulations they could dream up. So, in the 1970's the federal government decided a serial number was not giving us enough information about the manufacturer and the vehicle. Thus was born the nasty term VIN which by the way still contains the manufacturer's original serial number. Wink
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 1887
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't able to uncover hood registration numbers either as the entire jeep was stripped, primed, and repainted.

Yes, when SCDMV assigned me a 17-character VIN "SCDMV000000532721" they gave me a choice of either stamping or engraving it into the frame or stamping/engraving it on a plate and then affixing that plate to the frame. I picked the latter, a brass plate with 2 small holes riveting it to the outside front frame rail in plain sight. SCDMV inspected it and law enforcement told me they won't look for and don't care about any other data plates or numbers on the jeep so long as they can see the VIN plate and it matches my registration card and title.

I had intended to phony up a hood number using the last 5 of the SCDMV VIN, making "20932721", but would rather, if I can find a matching set of orphaned master plate and patent plate, use them instead.

Yes, only in my heart and my logbook (turned over to any subsequent owner) would the truth be known. Present company excepted of course.

Is there a list of orphaned data plates on the planet?

I could offer to build and maintain an orphan data plate list for posting on this forum if folks think it might be beneficial? Besides the obvious information I think it'd also require contact information to enable swaps, trades, barter, outright sales, etc. Just a thought.

If the current owner of M38A1 MD63816 (or the current owner of its master data plate matching that number) would like to have the original patent plate they can have it for the cost of postage. It's not doing me any good at all. If this is considered a "sale" I can move it to the For Sale board.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect there will always be a problem with this topic. Many states outlaw the sale of data plates and or titles without a vehicle attached to them. So on a nationwide stand point you are treading on slippery ground.

I can also offer some personal testimony to what can happen when serial plates are split up and or sold across the country. I had a very good friend buy a Willys MB. It had the dash serial plate but not the frame plate. It was purchased in Arizona and moved here to Wisconsin. When my friend applied for a Wisconsin title he was shocked to have the clerk confiscate his Arizona title and announce to him that a MB with that serial number is already titled in southeastern Wisconsin. It took a couple of months and a lot of writing to resolve. What was purported to have happened is the person in SE Wisconsin had purchased the frame in Arizona for his MB project which had no serial plate on the tub. The fellow in Arizona had purchased the tub for his MB project which had a serial plate on the dash. Fortunately for the two earlier owners their stories can't be proven or disproven but we will never be sure just exactly how the two serial plates were separated.

As for the comments of the police officers unless you have taped the conversation you really need to research the law on weather you can legally have conflicting serial/VIN plates on your jeep. The next cop may not interpret the law as loosely as the ones that inspected your jeep.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 1887
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wes. Excellent advice, and well taken. I will ask SCDMV to put what they told me in writing. They had no trouble at all when I told them that the MD63816 patent plate was obviously wrong for my jeep model, even though it had been registered in Georgia that way (where I bought it). They just issued me the VIN.

And I'll be very careful not to "sell" or get anything in return for the MD63816 patent plate. Although I'm sure nowadays I could still be convicted of something by even giving it away for free. I just hate to throw it in a drawer or the trash can instead of where it might be of use to somebody (whoever getting it understanding and accepting the issue with eyes wide open).

It makes me wonder of the good and reputable folks out there in the business of making reproduction data plates for these jeeps or other vintage vehicles. Do they have to be bonded or licensed (kind of like locksmiths in some states)? My impression is they'll make any data plate you want for the money, and no signing a liability waiver either.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind they are brand new and very shiney! Easy to spot.

It's the sensitive legality issues that have prevented anyone from organizing an exchange forum for serial plates.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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Bretto
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Joined: Nov 24, 2010
Posts: 1390
Location: Orem, UT

PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably not, as it's not the norm, but maybe your frame is stamped with your number somewhere like mine was. This is the front frame, driver side.


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Brett
'51 M38
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RonD2
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Joined: Oct 02, 2014
Posts: 1887
Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found no frame stamps other than the "M"'s where they should be, but I'm always on the lookout.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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4x4M38
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Joined: May 30, 2014
Posts: 3440
Location: Texas Hill Country

PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M stamp on the top left of your windshield frame?
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Brian
1950 M38
MC11481
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RonD2
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Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,
I don't know about the windshield frame, I'll have to look, but don't think so. Left (drivers?) side, inside or outside?

I only recall (from the M38 Reference Guide and this forum) that the "M" is a frame stamp in several locations, and I have them where the book says they are.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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4x4M38
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Posts: 3440
Location: Texas Hill Country

PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top of the frame, about a third of the way from the drivers side towards the middle.
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Brian
1950 M38
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rgmutchler
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Joined: Sep 28, 2008
Posts: 344
Location: Caldwell, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,
If I understand your situation correctly you have an assigned S Car. serial number attached to your vehicle and you are wondering what number to put on a data plate and patent plate.
First if you have a MC block that has been decked, removing the numbers, then contact your local PD or Sheriff's Office and talk to the people there that work with stolen property and they should have a chemical that many times can raise those numbers. If you can do that you have the MC # to put on your data and patent plate and you can re-stamp it. This will not be a problem for a few reasons
1. Vehicles prior to the VIN number in most every state are registered by the engine serial number. The only way there is a conflict is if someone else made up a number and stamped it on the block and you don't need a number for a title.
2. It isn't a problem because in most every state if not every state the data plates are a military invention, they have no meaning to registering or identifying your vehicle especially since you have an assigned number now.
3. I respectfully disagree with Wes, but since the data plates are not VIN plates and have no meaning in legally identifying a vehicle they are not illegal to sell. If they were you couldn't buy blanks and put numbers on them. VIN plates and titles are a different story.

Now it should be noted that if you raise the number on the block and use it on the data/patent plates that that is not the number that was on them originally since the engines MC# and the data plate MC# did not correspond in the production process.

I think I understand that you want to have a data plate MC# that is not in existence anymore to put on your data plates so there isn't anyone else with that number. I don't know how you could ever be assured of that since so many plates have been swapped around over the years and there is no overall list of the disposition of the 63,000? odd M38's built. I think I would look at the characteristics off your vehicle to get a possible date range of the build an then using Wes's list of vehicles pick a number in the proper sequence that is not listed and use it if I couldn't raise the block number.
Good luck
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R G Mutchler
M274A5
M-38 MC13312
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4x4M38
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph,
Would the local sheriffs office have that capability?

We're not talking Tarrant, Dallas, Travis or Harris here...


Raining up there?
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Brian
1950 M38
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RonD2
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Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ralph, thanks for the reply!
I was after two things: (1) a serial number matching set of original (not repop) patent and dash plates from a scrapped and ideally never titled in any state M38. Perhaps a pipe dream. As I mentioned, my M38 has no "identity" whatsoever. It came to me with an obviously wrong and since removed original M38A1 patent plate and a blank repop dash plate. I have no intent to ever stamp invented or bogus numbers on repop plates. I wanted original plates in semi-good or better condition. The SCDMV issued me a VIN so I'm otherwise good to own, drive, and insure it -- all that really matters. I suppose my objective to acquire original plates shouldn't matter or I would've could've should've bought a jeep with them already on it instead of the one I did. I am quite certain that I own an M38, I was just trying for an ounce more authenticity by mounting a set of original matching plates that were no longer being used by somebody who has them stuck in a drawer or nailed to the garage wall. I didn't realize this was a can o'worms.

Which was my second point (2), that in this forum and elsewhere, it seemed to me that folks who've been doing this for awhile have seen or own original (not repop) matched and mismatched serial number plates that are laying around from jeeps that are long gone to the bone yards. My thought was that getting a set of them wouldn't make my jeep one ounce more or less authentic, it would just be better use of them --- for me, and maybe others like me who own jeeps with no original identity. I don't know how many M38's are out there like mine with no serial number identity. I was originally thinking it must be a lot, but it now occurs to me it must not be many. Which makes my second point of suggesting to mate them together as being somewhat pointless.

While I appreciate the suggestion, I don't think I'll ask the Sheriff to see if he can lift the serial number off my decked motor block. No point, as we know the motor serial number has nothing to do with the patent and dash plate numbers. Even if they could lift a number for me (which would be ok) I wouldn't stamp repop plates with it, for obvious reasons.

And with the apparent legal issues involved --- that I don't need --- and Wes's advice, I'm okay with running my M38 with blank repop serial number plates from here on out.

I'm thinking when folks ask me why there aren't any serial numbers on my Army jeep I'm either going to tell them that I stole it (being a Marine), or that the C.I.A. owned it. Wink

Regards!
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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