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willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - advice needed engine just quit M38 1951
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advice needed engine just quit M38 1951
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Jake266
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Joined: Sep 09, 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject: advice needed engine just quit M38 1951 Reply with quote

I've had major work done to this '51 M38 and last week I finally got her out and it died within 1 mile of home. It seemd the engine just stopped running (total engine silence). It would try to get going then shut off again.
I had major work done in Stl by a classic car place after the gas tank lining disintegrated and crud went through the entire system and engine. I will not take it back to this place again.

I suspect, because of the last problem, something still floating around in the fuel might be causing the fuel to stop flowing to the engine. The engine fuel filter doesn't look clogged and isn't dirty.
Knowing nothing about engines, can someone advise me how to determine if it is the fuel delivery system or something else and things to look for?
Thanks.
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wesk
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Posts: 16227
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Jake,

There are a multitude of possibilities. This is why the experienced mechanics use a well organized, step by step troubleshooting regimen. They don't open themselves up to what is called shotgun troubleshooting (Grasping at straws and throwing parts at a problem).

Since you know very little about engines then now is the best time to improve your knowledge of them. Start with a thorough review of the M38's engine manual, TM 9-1804A. Follow that up with a review of the troubleshooting chart on page 72 of TM 9-8012, the M38's operator & maintenance manual. Paragraph d on page 75 best fits your issue. These manuals should always be on your work bench. They are available in PDF format free here on our web site's "Downloads" page.

One item often overlooked on fuel feed issues is the gas cap and the gas tank vent line/valve. Most of the M series trucks & jeeps came with a gas cap with a valve built into it so when you forded a creek you would remove the cap and inside you would rotate a vent lever to closed. The engine will begin to run a little rougher and will soon quit unless you place the lever back in the open position.



So the cap is the first thing you check when it runs fine for a few moments and then suddenly dies.

Some equipment you should have on hand for testing fuel delivery is a rubber or vinyl hose that fits the tubing used at the fuel pump, a container to catch fuel in, a fuel pressure gage (can be a combo VAC/PRESS gauge) and a set of flarenut wrenches.




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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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Jake266
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Joined: Sep 09, 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Thanks Wes Reply with quote

I have the manuals and have read through them. I wondered if I should even try to tackle this or fine a mechanic who knows these old engines.
I was going to try hitting the starter without the switch on and see if fuel is being delivered. After I was towed home I looked at the fuel line and filter. No leaks and the filter holder was full of fuel. It has since drained back I guess since the filter holder is now empty of fuel. A little too hot to be working on it right now per my doc & my wife but that doesn't mean I can't spend a little time testing some simple things until it cools down somewhat.
Thanks again Wes and I'll see what I can figure out with your info. I prefer working on firearms. Simpler in my mind I guess.
One other item I noticed, the "shop" that worked on this vehicle apparently cut the cable that goes to the throttle toggle on the dash so now the cable just hangs near the carburator. This wouldn't have anything to do with the problem, would it? I can't figure out why they did that.
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cabinfever
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Joined: May 14, 2013
Posts: 201
Location: Between Crosslake and Emily, Minnesota

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember when a similar problem occurred with my A1. The engine simply died while it was running.

The starter would turn over the engine, but the engine would not catch. I pulled out my manual and started down the troubleshooting guide and doing the tests it suggested. I found the issue relatively quickly. My ignition condenser had decided to die while the engine was running. I now keep an extra condenser with me.
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wesk
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Posts: 16227
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the cut throttle cable should not have any adverse effect on the engine.

Do you now how to check for spark at the plugs?
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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Jake266
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Joined: Sep 09, 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes,
First, it appears the cap on this vehicle is not like the one shown in the pic. This one has no center mechanism of any type for fording. It has a round steel disk with 3 tabs as in the pic and the chain is attached to a tab just off center.

The tubing shown looks like the type I use on bolt handles. Do you know the diameter as I have smoe laying around or is this some special tubing?

I've seen plug wires tested before and I know how to gap and examine or clean a plug but can't tell you I have seen plugs tested. If I have I don't recall.

Cabinfever,
I just saw your response. I'll find the condenser and test it too once I can get back out there. Still not fit for man nor beast and I was in the middle of replacing a garden for my wife so that's there also. Great being retired. More things to do than when I worked, sometimes.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
First, it appears the cap on this vehicle is not like the one shown in the pic. This one has no center mechanism of any type for fording. It has a round steel disk with 3 tabs as in the pic and the chain is attached to a tab just off center.

Then I would take that cap and see if it's built in vent is plugged up.

The tubing shown looks like the type I use on bolt handles. Do you know the diameter as I have smoe laying around or is this some special tubing?

The illustration shows standard fuel line type hose used on the test gauge and show's two short pieces of clear vinyl hose in two different ID's used to adapt the end of your metal tube on the jeep to the test gauge nipple. The diameter of the tubes you must disconnect to hook the gauge to will determine what size you need.

I've seen plug wires tested before and I know how to gap and examine or clean a plug but can't tell you I have seen plugs tested. If I have I don't recall.

You mean you have never seen anyone remove a spark plug from an engine, re-connect the spark plug lead and then crank the engine while observing the plug to see if it sparks???



Testing the capacitor (Condenser) requires the use of a capacitance tester. You can only check the very basic function by reversing an OHM meter on one.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php


Last edited by wesk on Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Xamon
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Joined: Sep 18, 2012
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Location: South East Saskatchewan

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you do not have the switching type gas cap the test is simply to run it without the cap.
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Carievale Saskatchewan Canada
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Balvar24
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Joined: Sep 05, 2009
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Start basic. Reply with quote

You need three things to run.

Fuel

Fire (Spark)

Air.

Test for each. Then you can test for each in the correct quantity and time.
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Jake266
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Joined: Sep 09, 2010
Posts: 51
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You all have given me a lot to look into once I'm able. No Wes, I never saw anyone test a plug before but recall the wire being tested for a spark when I was in my teens. Maybe a plug was attached, I don't recall it's so long ago now. Never did much with engines or cars. Interests were elsewhere. Essentially I know nothing so you can call me Sgt. Schultz I guess. But this isn't going to beat me. Time and health are my issues at the moment. At least everyone's input will be here for me to refer to down the line.
Thanks.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have not indicated weather your jeep is stock or modified so any further attempts to help will be on shakey ground till you post this info. Easiest is to simply post a detailed photo of your engine and the rest of the under the hood area.

Here's a sample of the stock M38;


Right side


Left side


Entire under hood area.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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dpcd67
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Joined: Nov 25, 2016
Posts: 187
Location: Iowa

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me be direct; not meaning to be harsh. There are two ways to own historic vehicles; one is to have a lot of money and pay for someone else to maintain them. And they do require constant maintenance; you will see that in your Operators and Org Maintenance TM. I have a couple of friends who do this. They miss most of the fun of owning a military vehicle as driving them only gives so much enjoyment before it becomes boring.
The other way is to learn everything about them from operator to Depot Maintenance and do everything yourself.
Either way, you need a complete set of TMs, and study them every day for 6 months before you even turn the ignition on. At least then the owner knows what parts are what and will know how to troubleshoot, even if he, or she, can't actually repair it.
_________________
M38 23100 June 51
M38 34523 Sep 51
M606/CJ3B 1964 Kaiser 57348 118458
M37B1 1963
Willys MB 1944
Ford GPW 1942
Dodge WC63 1943
Dodge Power Wagon WM300 1967
Plymouth Barracuda, 1973, 340 4 barrel
All ground up restored by me.
Lots of others.
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Jake266
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Posts: 51
Location: Missouri

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dpcd67.
Your opinion is noted. Direct is fine with me.
I'll say this, I am learning but it's going to take some time. During that time I will drive it. I have the manuals and have read through them more times than I remember but only pertaning to certain issues and over a period of several years. How many years have you been involved with these vehicles? I've owned this M38 for a while but due to other things, it mostly has sat until now with just a little driving.
Thanks
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake, we still need an answer to the question I asked you above:

Quote:
You have not indicated weather your jeep is stock or modified so any further attempts to help will be on shakey ground till you post this info.

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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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Jake266
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just saw your request and posted. BTW, is there a specific direction the pickup unit fits on the tank? The drawing in the manual is too dark to determine.
Sorry for the delay.
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