The only guaranteed accurate and reliable source for the steering shaft length is the Willys/Kaiser factory blueprint compared to what your tape measure shows! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Dec 10, 2017 Posts: 336 Location: Southern Maryland
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:08 am Post subject:
wesk wrote:
The only guaranteed accurate and reliable source for the steering shaft length is the Willys/Kaiser factory blueprint compared to what your tape measure shows!
Agree...but everybody doesn't have the factory blueprint in their back pocket...there has to be an easier way to ID the parts in the field.
With the part number ending with -42 3/8 and my original shaft measuring 42-3/8" O.L. I have to assume they match for a reason and the factory put the O.L. in the part # as an easy way to ID the part. The vendors selling replacement steering shafts ID them by there length.
I'm not trying to argue the point, I'm just looking for help in how to tell my vendor what to send me (since casting numbers don't help) and what I find on the internet leads me to believe O.L. is a step in the right direction.
Thanks,
Mike B _________________ Mike B
1953 M38A1 Brush Truck
1952 M38
1951 M100 Trailer
the question was how to measure the shaft and their response was to measure the smooth part...am I missing something???
Some part listings have a separate listing for the Shaft or tube but most list the shaft with welded on cam as the final item. Those that listed the tube alone for reference had a measurement included with the part # of 36". That does not include the cam. Try not to mix up the parts list use of the word tube for the shaft part of the shaft/cam assembly with the parts list listing for the outer jacket that they also call a tube.
For our jeeps the ORD 9 for the M38A1 does offer the Ross gear PN 9472-42 3/8" for the "Shaft, steering(with welded integral cam & nut)" but does not offer a listing for the tube alone. The M38 ORD 9 doesn't offer the Ross Gear PN but it does list two Shafts, w/integral cam and further breaks them down into tube and cam and nut. My civvy parts list
My My 1956 CJ3B, 1962 CJ3B. CJ5, CJ6 & DJ3A amd my 1967 CJ3B, CJ5, CJ6, DJ5 & DJ6 IPL's all list the Willys number 647693 for the "Tube & Cam Steering Gear Assy" only with no lengths. My 1946 thru 53 Willys Master Parts Lists list 3 different Tube/cam assemblies: CJ2A up to ser 178361 - A-742, CJ2A after ser 178361 - 646322, & CJ3A - 647693.
One must assume only dimensions from a Willys/Kaiser Factory source are to be assumed accurate & reliable. Of all the IPL's I have just reviewed only 2 listed any length dimensions: The M38A1 ORD 9 with RG# 9472-42 3/8 for the Steering shaft with integral cam and the M38 ORD 9 listed the tube length only as 36 1/2". Although the M38 ORD 9 also listed the part # for the cam as RG# RA123001 for the late M38 steering gear assembly and RG# TA123001 for the early M38 Steering gear assembly we can not use any method of comparison between the M38A1 ORD 9 listing and the M38 ORD 9 listings since the M38A1 ORD 9 has no listing for the cam alone. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 30, 2014 Posts: 3444 Location: Texas Hill Country
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:11 am Post subject: Steering shaft
For what it's worth, the M38A1 takeoff shaft and worm gear I bought used has the worm and shaft in one piece, as you'd expect. The worm has the TL123011 stamp, and the whole assembly is 42-1/4" long overall.
Granted, there is no provenance for this or any other parts I bought from this guy, other than I saw him stripping the A1 at his shop. How much of any of that stuff was factory original is anyone's guess.
I bought several parts from him for my M38, as most (except for the steering gear) were interchangeable with the M38 and A1.
For what it's worth, the M38A1 takeoff shaft and worm gear I bought used has the worm and shaft in one piece, as you'd expect. The worm has the TL123011 stamp, and the whole assembly is 42-1/4" long overall.
All makes good sense. The M38A1 used a different cam because it's ratio was different from the M38. The 42 1/4" is close enough to the ORD 9's PN 9472-42 3/8" spec considering production tolerance's. It would be nice to know the length of the tube on that same M38A1 takeoff shaft & worm gear of yours. Do you still have it? If so can post a photo of it with as precise measurements as possible for the two sections? _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Dec 10, 2017 Posts: 336 Location: Southern Maryland
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:52 pm Post subject:
Wes,
Thanks for sharing all the info on the Steering Shaft Assemblies. I only own this one Jeep and only have literature to support that Jeep. Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected to find that the Cam (Worm Gear) could be sourced as a separate part...
I do have three assemblies and will share the info on those below.
1. My original M38A1 Steering Shaft Assy;
Marked; TL123011 NE 2
Shaft Length; 36-3/8"
Cam; 6" plus whatever is inside the Shaft (can't measure inside due to rust blockage), left hand thread.
O.L.; 42-3/8"
2. Second Steering Shaft Assy sent by my vendor;
Marked; TL123011 BJ
Shaft Length; 35-3/4"
Cam; 5-7/8" , plus 1/4" that is inside the shaft, left hand thread.
O.L.; 41-5/8"
3. First Steering Shaft Assy sent by my vendor;
Marked; TL123004 XD
Shaft Length; 38-1/16"
Cam; 6" , plus 1/8" that is inside the shaft, right hand thread.
O.L.; 44-1/16"
Note, the vendor supplied cams are copper plated and I'm measuring the Shaft from where the copper stops and the bare steel starts. There is a very fine line at that point. Looks to me like they were friction welded together as there is no sign of arc welding at that point.
I can email pictures with my measurements if needed.
I'll update this list when the next shaft assembly arrives...
Mike B _________________ Mike B
1953 M38A1 Brush Truck
1952 M38
1951 M100 Trailer
The only guaranteed accurate and reliable source for the steering shaft length is the Willys/Kaiser factory blueprint compared to what your tape measure shows!
If I was within 4600 miles of home, I would have sent you answer by now.
A for the reverse screw of the 123004 I suspect it was for a Willys Truck or station wagon where the steering box was flipped, and the drag link runs outside if the frame rail on the drivers side of the vehicle.
MB thru CJ2A 178361 (10/7/47) used part A-742. OAL= 40-13/32, Ross Assy number T-123041-A8-4040
CJ-2A after 178361 , CJ-3A and CJ-3B used 647693, OAL=41-1/2 Ross Assy number TL-123041 - A10-4150
CJ5,6 used 3 different Assy and is out of scope for this study
MC used part number 804388, OAL= 42, Ross Assy number TA123001-A1-4200
MD used part number 807480, OAL = 42.3/8, Ross Assy TL-123011-AIS-4237
Confirmation that I was INCORRECT about the reverse pitch on the worm gear being opposite direction due to flipped steering box. WES was RIGHT, the reverse pitch was for right hand drive vehicles. Reverse pitch was required due to flipped (mirror image) Bellcrank design.
Last edited by WillysMotors on Tue May 12, 2020 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Oct 02, 2014 Posts: 1904 Location: South Carolina, Dorchester County
Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 10:25 am Post subject:
And a huge thank you for posting the answer to the reverse pitch on the worm question!
I especially appreciate it when threads like this are completed and no mystery is left unanswered. Great stuff. _________________ Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51
“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari
Sorry it took so long.
Many of the newer references used to narrow the search were quite deceptive.
Issues such as catalogs confusing the Cam and tube part numbers with a later entire steering box, column, and wheel being sold under the same pat number but with a longer column.
The numbers I provided are for parts installed on the Jeep when they left the factory. As factory parts were cycled through the 'mail order' or surplus system, many times INCORRECT surplus parts were substituted while in service.
As an example, certain tube and cam assemblies could be substituted (longer) if a different nut and horn button was substituted. It would work, but it was not correct.
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