M38s blue from the factory???? (lots of pics)

[Bill_F]

I also want to share how I plan on painting the jeep.

Underside will be 24087, just because I have a gallon that I bought for the m38 I sold Rick L, also seat frames and most bolt on parts. Engine and tranny are 24087, blackout light will be od, and underhood battery box will be, everything else will be blue. I do hope to have it on the road next summer, the only problem is I will be camp director at our cubs scout summer camp and dont know if I will have the time or not. I just need to find someone in NH that would be willing to paint it for me (the cheaper the better)

[Ryan_Miller]

Bill,

I did not know you are a Boy Scout DE. I am the committee chairman for my local troop.

I think the BSA is a great organization.

I don't think anyone here felt you were being rude, I just wanted to make sure you were aware that we really do support your efforts. Sometimes it may not sound like we do, but we are critical thinkers and like to see hard evidence (scientific method as they say).
_________________
Ryan Miller
MVPA # 22010

[Bill_F]

I know the scientific method well. I have a degree in Development Psychology. My thought process always goes back to sample size, and right now with only two possible factory blue m38s made within a month of each other it is not a very good sample. I however do wonder how many blue jeeps have been scraped or repainted OD. I wish a document would come up to support this but I doubt it ever well.

[MajBen]

Hi Bill and Ryan, I too am a supporter of the BSA having been one that reached Star. The scouts meant everything to me in thoses days as I was raised by a great mother and 2 older female sibblings only seeing my dad about once a year.

I also agree whole heartedly with what Ryan is writing. I applaud you for bringing your find to everyone's attention to 'kick around.' For you to understand just exactly from where I come, Wes, in my view has more knowledge about the M38/A1 and amassed more data from his research than anyone I know and it goes without saying that Ryan is not far behind. It is rewarding to me to learn when they find the same answers to different situations as I do. However, we do not agree on everything and when I don't I say so and they do too. But those things are in the minority and usually I end up coming to their way of thinking becasue of the data they can site.

If I am attuned to their dream, it is really simple. They are trying to establish a Model of an M38 as it rolled out the factory door backed by documented evidence; something as a standard for all of us to shoot for but few who will aver achieve. In the first place, what really is an M38? At best, there are 3 distinct periods in its evolution; that is to say, the early one, the middle one which is probably the closest that they were supposed to be, and the later ones that took on many traits of the A1. To complicate matters more, few of the changes happended at the same time so we find variing differences within each period.

The question of paint has been kicked around for years and many have found various colors of parts that really question not only whether or not all were painted OD as they left the door, but also the long dispute as to what color Army OD really is or better said was.

But so far, no one has come up with fool proof documentation that ALL M38s came out the factory door any certain color. I use the word 'ALL' advisedly as I know Wes, as I, have a dim view of limiting words of this type.

I must admit that after all the struggle that has been going on to find an answer, I personally believe that all M38 did or were supposed to come out the factory door Army OD. And, I recognize that several, as you, have found some very compeling evidence that some parts were of a different color.

Here is how I reconcile for myself this puzzle. I think Mr. Z was right dead on when he said that like parts of the military and the civilian jeeps were exchanged on line to take care of shortages as they very often did.

I know Wes does not necessarily agree with my statements that in 1950 our miliary industrial complex (not the general public as in WWII) found themselves in a critical situation once again to provide the men and material to fight another war just 5 short years from the end of the big one. But, I lived through those days. Not only did I personally witness the scramble of empting state side posts of Marines to bring a near skelton lst Marine Division to strength to go immediately to Korea but the build up of the 2nd and 3rd Divisions as well. What equipment that had not been scuttled in he 5 years after II was hurriedly sent to the war area as well.

Coupled with what I witnessed and was part of, I had the occasion to visit two automobile factories during the same period. One was the Old Ford plant in KC and the other was a newer Buick plant in Flint Michigan. I was startled by what I saw at the KC plant. I can not describe the disorganization I saw with parts scattered every where. It was truly amazing that they produced anythng that looked like a vehicle. The Flint plant, being newer, appeared to be much more organized and the assembly lines were minus the clutter all arround in KC.

These two plants did have a couple of things common: It took a near catestropohic event for either line to shut down. The SOP was go, go go, we have a quote to make at the end of the shift. And, each plant was producting different models at the same plant. I don't remember about the Flint facility, but I still have a vivid image of the one Line Ford plant with different models including pickups and cars, different colors, different options. There was one point where I spent the most time and that was the final assembly line where many lines converged into one final line. The main line at this point had the running gears including the motor, trans, axles, steering, etc. Overhead could be seen the many lines carrying different parts, such as doors, body, fenders, etc and so many colors. I sat there on a chair watching in total awe wondering how in the world, the right colors all came to gether at the right spot for the right model. And, during my short visit, they did, but I would guess there was times when they didn't.

Of course, I did not have the experience of visiting the Toledo plant so things may not have been so hectic. But it makes common sense to me that parts did get exchanged on the line as necessary to keep it going and I think that it is plausible that a complete tub could have met that criterion. Further, it makes complete sense to me that at some point on the line, certain items were given a final painting, and what ever color was covered up was covered up. Remember, that not all parts to the jeep were made at Toledo. Electrical items being a good example I think. For the most part, they probably were Army OD of some hue resembling Army OD but from so many reports, there was wide variance in these attachments as well. In conclusion, I believe that all M38s left the factory door some sort of Army OD blend.

But, who am I to make that judgment? Absolutely a no body without any credentials. Just an opinion that can be changed with clear documented evidence.

And, who really cares, I question as I painted mine a near gloss USMC green when in fact a USMC M38 may or may not ever have been painted anthing but semi or flat. But, it is my jeep. It is my humble atempt to memorialize my beloved Corps. And, Bill, you will get a lot of attention with your USAF Strata Blue. Our friend from Oklahoma City took his 'Blue' to the Willys display in Jefferson City, MO this past fall and says that it got more attention than many others, simply becasue they are so few around, I would guess. And, he will be the first to admit, that his Blue is a few step from being complete. First of all, is was produced by Ford in Canada---but, who cares, it must have made a bunch of old Air Force Veterans very proud to see thier jeep there.

In conclusion, if anyone has read this boring nonsense thus far, Bill, keep plugging and you will have wonderful M38 that you are proud of AND BY ALL ACCOUNTS, IF IT WAS NOT BLUE OUT THE DOOR, IT SOON WAS BEFORE ACTUAL SERVICE.

Semper Fi Ben
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Semper Fi Ben M38 & M100

[Bill_F]

well said ben. I have enjoyed watching your resto. Mine wont look nearly as nice, or as complete. I hope to have my jeep for the summer to take it to weare NH. It will be the only blue rig there so should stand out.

With all the Scout supporters on this Board I should ask you guys to help support scouting through Friends of Scouting be it through me or you local council. I do have a very unique program called Scoutreach. It is desinged to reach at risk youth, where the council using a grant pays for everything the Scouts in my program need, books unifroms, week at camp, everything. Unfortunatly the grant that pays for this program was just cut by $250,000 so that is leading us to look for additions funding.

[Rtaylor]

I was unable to get pictures this weekend of my blue M38 - #59960. Bill, I will try again this weekend. I am out of room in the garage at the time, so I stuck this M38 in a barn, hence no electricity or lights. I will roll it out and get some close-ups ASAP.

Richard Taylor

[Bill_F]

Here are pics of Richard's USAF M38, nocite blue paint in all the same spots as mine.

[MajBen]

Hi Bill, I discussed at some length above the possibility that parts were switched from civilian jeeps to military on the assembly line.

I knew that I had purchased a paint chip chart on e-bay several years ago but had lost it. Today, I accidently ran across it. This is Bulletin No. 10 for 1952 Willys-Overland Colors issued April 30 1952 by DuPont. It lists and has chips for passenger car, station wagon, jeep trucks, and station wagon along with DUCO paint #s. Included are the the listing of colors for models 1948 through 51 (no chips).

For 1952 civilian certain model jeeps are two blue colors. Taking in consideration that these chips as well as your paint has changed ne somewhat in the 50+ years, it quite possible that one or the other matched your paint in the beginning.

Due to my trememdous respect for Wes and his dedication to the long term preservation of historical data for the M Jeeps in general, I have decided to send this chart with ciips to him after the holidays for whatever use, if any, he may determine. Moreover, Wes's Air Force career certainly gives him a distinct advantage in determining Air Force colors.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all and Semper Fi Ben
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Semper Fi Ben M38 & M100

[Bill_F]

Thanks for that update Ben.

I dont see how an m38 tub would have gotten painted blue, or even onto and cj line, to many differences. The only resonable explantion would be it was delibratly painted blue at the factory.

However my hood and fenders are OD under the blue.

For Hood numbers, I saned down to bare metal and all I found was
USAF
N-1346
then green paint, no white numbers, primer, bare metal.

I still have to pick up a USAF marking guid at some point. Right now I am still looking for a warm place to paint the jeep.

[MajBen]

Hi Bill, regarding your second sentence above,are there really that many differences in the M38 and CJ3A tubs? I really don't know at the moment but there has been a lot of chatter in this regard, and I just forget. I do know there were several changes in the running gears but can't remember on the tub alone. How else do you explain the blue tub and the other OD painted items you mentioned? Not arguing as I don't have an answer, just curious.

Take care and I hope you find a warm place to get it painted. SF Ben
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Semper Fi Ben M38 & M100

[Bill_F]

What I think happend is the jeep was ordered by the USAF to be blue, so they painted the tub blue but the fenders hood and other parts where already painted OD, for the other orders, so they just top coated them in blue. There are a lot of differnece between a cj3a and an m38 tub, more than can be easiley changed. It would be quite the the thing to have a blue cj3a tub converted at the factory to an m38 tub, then have it wind up as an USAF jeep.

I wonder how many blue jeeps have been restored as OD jeeps and how many have been lost. I really wish someone could find some documentation to prove my thoughts, or disprove it all together. So far two jeeps seem to have left the factory blue, a month apart from each other.

[wesk]

[Bill_F]

Wes I do respect what you are saying. I believe we will never know for sure. But finding two jeeps which appear to have blue paint on them where most repaints would not get paint is hard evidance not to look at. Why would my fenders and hood have green paint under the blue, but my tub not have anyOD? There is no sign of prior body work done to my jeep, The spotwelds I took out sure looked factory to me. If willys did supply replacement tubs in Blue wouldnt there be a record of that? My jeep was in the USAF with No USA number on the hood, and 20**** just the usaf number. I know i cant wait to get my jeep done, it will be the only blue m38 when I take it to the shows. This is a great website and the info is really helpfull, I just dont thing we should discount anything odd people find with there jeeps.

[wesk]

You may have missed my point Bill. I am not trying to change your mind. I am not discounting anything anyone has to offer. I am convinced your blue M38 tub is a fluke. I am convinced it did not get painted blue at Willys between JUN 1950 and Jul 1952. I reached these personal conclusions by weighing all the presented evidence. I did not discount your evidence. I simply found it very easy to explain how it may have become blue. I have a dozen pieces of evidence that there wasn't any blue M38 painting going on at Willys from Jun 1950 thru Jul 1952. You have one piece of evidence that one may have. The second blue jeep has already announced on the site that he has OD and black under the blue.
If you had a dozen blue only jeeps and proof that they were ORIGINALLY painted blue then we'd have a tie!

As an aside note when something is discounted it is not considered. In the case of your jeep I did consider it and I found your one piece of evidence did not outweigh my 12 pieces of evidence.

Also I find it very difficult to ascertain what may be original on a 53 year old artifact without using some scientific means to verify each suspected original facet of the artifact.

I find that 12 blueprints which all specify the paints to be used and how they are to be applied and all dated during the suspect period to be much stronger evidence than a private observation of a half century old paint residue without any scientific analysis.

Bottom line is I have stated my opinion as I see it and you have stated your opinion as you see it. I have said earlier and again here that I absolutely respect your opinion and encourage you to stand behind it. I am not trying to argumentative or force my opinion on anyone else. I have simply stated my opinion and explained how I arrived at my conclusions. This in no way should be construed as discounting anyone's evidence.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[Rtaylor]

Wes, This is Richard Taylor. I am new to the forum and the one who stirred this post up again. I purchased two M38's in the last 6 months, one driver and one for parts. My parts jeep #59960, del. date 3/52 is one month later than Bill's. As I started looking at the details of this jeep, I noticed Strata Blue under the topcoat (civilian repaint not OD). The more I looked at the tub, I found blue everywhere but no OD anywhere on the tub, just like Bill's. So your quote,