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willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - Which oil shall be in tranny?
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Which oil shall be in tranny?
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Brinken
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Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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Location: Karlskrona, Sweden, Europe

PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Which oil shall be in tranny? Reply with quote

After refurbishing the handbrake on my A1 I refilled the tranny with a mineral based oil of hypoid type SAE 80/90, and of GL5 type.

A friend is now reminding me that one shall not use GL5 oil in the tranny as the brass inside don't go together with the GL5.

Do my 1961 M38A1 have brass inside the tranny?
Have I done a bad?
Do I need to replace the oil?
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//Jan-Olof
1961 M38A1
1955 Roset/Polynorm trailer
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southpw
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your fruend is correct. GL-1 should be used. Hard to find now. I found some from a gent that sponsors race cars and classic cars. Some folks in the US are saying they can still pick it up at Napa but north of the border it seems impossible to find, even from the farm stores.
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Brad
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some brands now claim their GL-5 does not contain enough sulphur to damage your T-90's synchronizer rings. I personally do not accept their point of view. The sulphur content can vary as you use the modern GL-5 over time. It is not worth the risk to use it. Stay with GL-2 thru GL-4. As alternatives to GL-2 thru GL-4 if it is not available you can use heavy weight racing engine oils in the 50/60 weight range. Please note that engine oils use a very different viscosity scale then EP Diff lubes. The actual viscosities of 50/60 weight engine oil is very much equal to 80/90 wt gear oil.

Here are some reading choices for you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=352794&docFormat=PDF
Note this posting advises against use with synchronized manual transmission!
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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DanS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, this fear of use of GL-5 in components with brass has been mostly de-bunked. The key here is to use a name brand, quality lube, not dollar store stuff. A local, long term rebuilder of trannys and diffs has been using GL-5 for as long as it has existed without a single return for the issue stated. When you do a search on the net, make sure you look at only legit sites. Lots of bunk out there.

Dan
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Dan Schultz
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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, why don't you give us a few links to the debunked stories?
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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DanS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will see if I can locate them, been a while.
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Dan Schultz
MD20035 9/1952
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GPW 14944 dod 4/10/42
K38 Linemans Trailer 4/43
M100 Trailer 01177488 dod 8/51
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Brinken
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes
I have found GL-4 gear oil in Town, will that do in my tranny?


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//Jan-Olof
1961 M38A1
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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High pressure (EP) oils are meant primarily for hyphoid differential gear teeth not manual transmission helical and straight cut gears. Before they elevated the sulphur content to damaging levels for brass and copper they were an adequate gear oil for manual transmissions. The industry embraced them for use in both for many years negating the need to offer lighter weight transmission only gear oils. GL4 & 5 oils have the highest sulphur content which has the potential to damage non-ferrous metals. Since we have a very adequate selection of transmission gear box only oils to choose from there is no good reason to accept any level of sulphur damage risk. Therefore why not choose a gear oil meant for the low pressure gear surfaces in the manual transmission?

It is a simple fact that higher concentrations of sulpher in any gear oil will attack brass and copper parts.

It is a simple fact that the heavy weights of EP gear oils prevent their being able to properly supply lubricant to small bearing areas such as the needle bearings in the T90 under colder temps.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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DanS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check out this posting for additional info.


http://www.westfalia.org/community/showthread.php?189-Use-of-GL-5-transmission-fluid-in-GL-4-spec-transmissions

Dan
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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Careful Dan, two things wrong with that guys disortation:

1-He represents his company and his companies products!

2-He is commenting in a topic on much more modern transaxlials.

Quote:
You're getting caught up in a very old wive's tale. GL-5 is OK for VW manual transmissions. In fact, you'll probably find 90% of the VW dealers use it. The subject came up again very recently so I went back to my source, one of the top lubrication chemical engineers for a major international supplier of both GL-4 & GL-5 as well as everything else including synthetics. National expert class. (His info also checks with their published materials manual.) This is the guy that investigated and supervised the lab tests of incidents that were claimed to be lube failures or damage. He says none were due to the GL-5 characteristics over GL-4.

First of all, if you are dropping out of gear, it has nothing to do with the syncros. It's worn gears, linkage adjustment or internal freeplay devloping.

There is nothing in GL-5 (or GL-4 for that matter that is corrosive.) In fact, both have the same anti-corrosive additives. (Try a litmus comparison test!) Also, there are NO brass synchronizers. Stop & think, real brass would wear out in a few weeks and is so soft it would dent or distort with the first few hard shifts. What you are seeing is an alloy that gives a gold-ish appearance. Probably a sintered iron &/or cadmium alloy to give it the friction characteristics desired. [A little side PS -- Porsche designed about 90% of the world's synchronizers and OKs GL-5.]


Quote:
There are no brass synchronizors!!!!
Really well most likely not in the VW transaxel but most certainly yes in the T90!

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28958/ep-additives-effects
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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DanS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion has been on going for a long time. I go with my local expert that has rebuilding both trannys and diffs for over 40 years. I agree with the poster, these "brass" synchros are probably not JUST brass, but an alloy.

Dan
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K38 Linemans Trailer 4/43
M100 Trailer 01177488 dod 8/51
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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've broken these old brass synchros in half and they are brass. Try to understand the sulphur doesn't attack the brass or the bronze but instead it attacks the copper that is used in them to form the alloy of brass or bronze.

Using lightly used trannies in low mileage restored classics is not the way you determine normal wear and corrosion rates. The real issues surfaces after many thousand of miles and long after these initial discussions take place.

So if you drive less than a thousand miles per year then use anything you feel comfortable with.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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Brinken
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys
Thank you for an interesting and lively discussion regarding my choice of oil in the tranny. I have surely shown my ignorance in this subject.

After 1 1/2 days on the Internet, on the phone and on the Swedish jeep forum I have found an oil that I think will do in my tranny, hopefully you agree with me.


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//Jan-Olof
1961 M38A1
1955 Roset/Polynorm trailer
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wesk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That will certainly work just fine! GL-1.

Here's what the API site offers on this topic:

Quote:
API API Gear Oil Specifications

Spec Status Description
GL-1 Active The designation API GL-1 denotes lubricants intended for manual transmissions operating under such mild conditions that straight petroleum or refined petroleum oil may be used satisfactorily. Oxidation and rust inhibitors, defoamers, and pour depressants may be added to improve the characteristics of these lubricants. Friction modifiers and extreme pressure additives shall not be used.
GL-2 Inactive The designation API GL-2 denotes lubricants intended for automotive worm-gear axles operating under such conditions of load, temperature, and sliding velocities that lubricants satisfactory for API GL-1 service will not suffice.
GL-3 Inactive The designation API GL-3 denotes lubricants intended for manual transmissions operating under moderate to severe conditions and spiral-bevel axles operating under mild to moderate conditions of speed and load. These service conditions require a lubricant having load-carrying capacities exceeding those satisfying API GL-1 service but below the requirements of lubricants satisfying API GL-4 service.
GL-4 Active The designation API GL-4 denotes lubricants intended for axles with spiral bevel gears operating under moderate to severe conditions of speed and load or axles with hypoid (see note)gears operating under moderate speeds and loads. These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and transaxle applications where MT-1 lubricants are unsuitable. The manufacturer's specific lubricant quality recommendations should be followed.
GL-5 Active The designation API GL-5 denotes lubricants intended for gears, particularly hypoid (see note) gears, in axles operating under various combinations of high-speed/shock load and low-speed/high-torque conditions.
GL-6 Inactive The designation API GL-6 denotes lubricants intended for gears designed with a very high pinion offset. Such designs typically require protection from gear scoring in excess of that provided by API GL-5 gear oils.
MT-1 Active The designation API MT-1 denotes lubricants intended for non-synchronized manual transmissions used in buses and heavy-duty trucks. Lubricants meeting the requirements of API MT-1 service provide protection against the combination of thermal degradation, component wear, and oil-seal deterioration, which is not provided by lubricants in current use meeting only the requirements of API GL-1, 4, or 5.


http://www.oilspecifications.org/api_gos.php

Chevron offers this information on it's GL-1 gear oil:
https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=406136&docFormat=PDF

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/SDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=404354&docFormat=PDF
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php


Last edited by wesk on Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brinken
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Wes
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//Jan-Olof
1961 M38A1
1955 Roset/Polynorm trailer
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