Joined: Nov 10, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Somerset, Ohio
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: Starter, Generator, Voltage Regulator
Greetings, I am new to the site and am full of questions. I am restoring an M38 which had the original engine lying in the back with a hole about the size of a tennis ball in the side. Some one had set a 6 cylinder engine in but had not hooked it up. I had the hole repaired and have the drive train and chassis about completely redone. I have most of the original parts and assume that I will try to get it back to the 24 volt format. I have a starter that appears to have been opened and possibly tinkered with. I have a generator and voltage regulator. Is there someone who rehabs these things? Also I will be needing a complete set of wiring. Any suggestions regarding a source?
Steve,
You didn't mention the voltage of the electrical parts you wish to have restored. If they are 24 volt then first talk to a local heavy truck repair shop and ask who they send their heavy electrical work to. Ask at several local garages if they know of anyone semi-retired still doing old electrical equipment repairs at their home.
You have three choices for a proper original style harness.
2-Jeff Smith's MVP shop in Florida. (he says he has temporarily retired but try him anyway since he may have a harness or two around.
http://www.mvpc.com/
3-Build a new one yourself. The wire, the terminals and the diagrams are readily available.
Note: There is some close parallel history between the two shops listed above that makes their products very close to each other in quality.
Your serial number of your M38 will tell us which wiring diagram is correct for your M38. There are 4 or 5 changes that effect the harnes significantly. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Nov 10, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Somerset, Ohio
Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject:
Thanks for getting back to me Wes,
I have 24 volt electrical parts. I dug the data tag out of the old tub and came up with the following.
The ORDNANCE STOCK NO has been stamped over so I am not sure what the original emboss one was but I think it was 6/95525. The new stamped number appears to be G27 40-8358318 or G27 40-8358310. The MFR. SER. NO. IS 61702 OR 617Q2. The DATE DEL. is 4/52. I located the plate under the passengers seat, however, I can't read it at all. I am in the process of obtaining a title for the jeep.
Hello Steve,
That makes your M38 serial MC61702 delivered from Willys April 1952 .
The wiring harnes you will need is the middle group of m38's. Thus is as delivered from Willys. Several itms amy have been installed or removed while the jeep was in service.
1-No slave receptacle so no need for those two wires.
2-No radio power receptacle so no need for those two wires.
3-No firewall accessory plug.
4-Single connector second style light switch so no need for seperate set of wires to the trailer plug from light switch.
5-Your jeep had the ignition noise filter in the distributor so no extra box on the firewall.
6-You do have the instrument panel circuit breaker and the three circuit breakers on the inboard side of the cowl battery box so you will need those wires.
Your jeep's original hood registration number should be about 20909XXX.
You should have the large frame closed nose starter MCZ4001UT (G740-8328132), late distributor IAU4006UT (G740-7355596), Generator GHA4802BUT (8673350), Regulator VBC4002UT (G741-7524309).
Your engine serial should be MC74420 or higher.
The top starter should be what you have.
You should have this voltage regulator
You should have this distributor
These are the correct connectors for your harness
You should have this instrument cluster with the double clip on the one side and a circuit breaker on the other side.
You should have the 3 circuit breakers but not the accessory plug.
You should have this blackout driving light.
You should have this engine block. Serial number is on the flat above the water pump.
This would have been the original oil filter.
You would have this late M38 firewall
You should have the middle switch.
You should not have the box #6 on the firewall or the heavy cable from it to the distributor.
Your serial plate from the lower right corner of the dash group should look like this.
Your ID plate under the pax seat should look like this.
You should not have the radio plug and wries.
Finally heres a late M38 wiring diagram tailer to your serial as delivered by Willy April 1952.
Joined: Nov 10, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Somerset, Ohio
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:05 am Post subject:
Thanks for all of the information, Wes. The only information that I have is found in a compilation book that I purchased from Beachwood Canvas. It contains 4 reprints of tech manuals. I located a number stamped in the machined surface onto which the water pump mounts. It is 72685. There is no number on the head as is indicated in your photo. I also have nothing in the cowl battery box.
The starter that I have is the early M38 style. I was curious about the fact that the bell housing has a bearing site and expanded area into which fits a 6 volt starter that was also lying in the back of the jeep upon its arrival. That starter has a shiny red label that makes me think that it is an after-market one. I wondered if it could be the wrong bell housing. It appears that the starter that I have does not need that bearing placement in the bell housing.
The distributor that I have looks like the one the photo you provided. I have yet to remove the instrument panel - I will do that yet today. In your pictures, you show three "switches." I have not seen those. Where would I look for them and what is their function. I do not have an oil filter so will be on the lookout for one. I also have not seen a noise suppressor. My distributor has a plug where the noise supressor cable enters the distributor cap.
Both the BO light and the voltage regulator appear to be the same.
I will be working on the jeep today and will check out the electrical items that you discussed. I have virtually no functional wiring and the wiring that is there is really in bad shape. I looked at the site you provided for the folks in Maine and it looks good to me.
Steve,
Look closer at the engine front photo the serial is not on the head but on the flat above the water pump.
The correct bellhousing for the early starter does have the support bushing in the rear face. It is not used.
You'll need to get the real M38 manuals. The four you need to start with are:
TM 9-8012 M38 Operatolr & Maintenance manual
TM 9-1804A M38 Engine & clutch maintenance manual
TM 9-1804B M38 Powertrain, frame and body maintenance manual
ORD 9 SNL G-740 M38 parts manual
Additional manuals that are very helpful are the:
TM 9-1825B Auto-Lite Electrical Components Dated 1952
TM 9-1826A Carter Carbs Dated Dec 52
TM 9-1828A Fuel Pumps Dated 1952
You should be careful to get nothing older than the dates indicated beacuse these same manuals are available still in the their older issues which will not cover the equipment installed in the M38 or M38A1.
It appears you have a later M38 with the early engine/bellhousing. This is not an uncommon thing. But you will need to make a decision early on in your resto where you want to go. The early starter and engine are more difficult to locate but if you want to make your resto more accurate then you'll need to trade with someone for the later stuff. The cutoff for the early/late engines and bells is Feb 52 at chassis serial MC53262 and engne serial MC74419. The missing circuit breakers on the inside side of the cowl battery box is also common since the Army may have serviced the jeep with the later harnes at some time which doesn't use the circuit breakers.
Those are the three type light switches used by the M38. Based on your serial you should have the center one. It is located in the center hole in the dash just above the steering column.
The switch is item E in this photo. This dash is the late dash after MC65042. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Welcome to the group... lots of info to be had here...
If you would let us know where you are located, maybe someone on the board can get with you and provide additional assistance... Under your profile you can enter your location (don't have to get specific, let's say state)...
I live in OKlahoma and have found a couple of folks the like to talk jeep/Willys when we get together... It may also provide someone in your area the chance to introduce you to a local group into military vehicles...
Enjoy the jeep... lots of fun, learning and comraderie here...
Wes is setting you on the right path if you are wanting to know what is original to your jeep.
Remember that we all appreciate these jeeps and that although some of us are big "Factory Original" fans, we also enjoy seeing them all back on the road and what you do with your jeep is up to you.
Joined: Nov 10, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Somerset, Ohio
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject:
Wes, I checked out the light switch and it appears to be similar to the one on the right in the photo that you provided. The canon plug comes directly out the back of the switch. I also hlave a radio receptacle on the passenger side of the tub. There is no ground cable crossing the bottom of the compartment in the floor. Also, since the circuit breakers that were originally located in the cowl battery box are not there, should they be replaced or is that an original factory or military modification that can be left out?
Joined: Nov 10, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Somerset, Ohio
Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject:
I spoke too soon. I pulled the instrument panel out and low and behold, there were the three circuit breakers. They are under the dash mounted on the outside of the cowl battery box.
By the way, I updated my profile. I am located in central Ohio.
As Ryan said above, "It's your jeep, do it your way". You must first decide just how correct, how far, and how much money you want to spend. The primary choices are:
Factory exact resto
As close to factory as you can afford to get.
Motor pool perfect.
As close to motor pool perfect as you can get.
A dailey driver
A beater
A rock crusher
Heavily modified or custom
Lightly modified or light custom.
Most of these 54 year old jeeps have had tons of damage, torture and changes. During their service with the military as they aged and parts became more difficult to obtain it was common to see many field expedients utilized to lengthen their service time. When parts were superseded over the years then it wasn't long before only the latest issued parts were available. So older light switches and wiring harnesses very quickly disappeared and the newer versions were pressed into service.
It was more common to see later engines installed in earlier jeeps but sometimes the situation forced the older engine into the newer jeep. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Nov 10, 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Somerset, Ohio
Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:23 am Post subject:
Good Morning, Wes.
I would place myself in the "As close to factory as I can afford to get" group. My tub is rotton beyond repair so I will need a replacement. Other parts that I need include:
Oil filter (I have the original bracket)
Carburator (I have a Carter YF but I have no idea what it fits)
Air Filter
Fender mounted battery box
Possibly a fuel tank
Radiator support rod
Horn rod (the one that goes from the button to the switch)
and much more, I'm sure.
I will probably use the engine that I have for now. I have quite a bit of cash invested in the rebuild and block repair.
Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: Parts
Your list of parts, I have. I will also add that MVP, aka. Jeff Smith no longer is in the wiring business. You still have a couple of choices, but not him.
Midwest Military
Vintage Wiring of ME
Peter Debella
Hi Steve, I have MC62015 which is only 313 jeeps later than yours.
Everything Wes mentioned is exactly like mine except I have the
right hand light switch and I am replacing the blackout drive light bracket which is from a M151. It is close to motor pool perfect as I can get it.
The engine is a CJV35 which with a stretch could be in a motor pool M38.
Have as much fun with the jeep as I've had with mine for the past 35 years. Sam
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