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a1 clutch
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zeke57
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Joined: Dec 28, 2017
Posts: 156
Location: Salamanca,NY

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: a1 clutch Reply with quote

Removed the clutch to inspect it and appears in good condition to me but again I am no expert. The disk seems to have about 3/16ths'' of meat on each side and is consistent around the perimeter. The flywheel side still has stickers on it so I am thinking maybe it was recently replaced. The flywheel surface and pressure plate surface are both showing machine marks so maybe recently resurfaced? So that leaves the throw out bearing and pilot bearing. Is there a way to check them for wear or should I just replace them?
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wesk
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Posts: 14415
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making good, solid judgement calls with photos is tough sometimes. It's is often better to have a local professional mechanic get a close look at things like clutch discs and pressure plates.

If the throwout bearing spins freely without making a lot of noise, shows no play between it's parts and not excessive slop between the bearing and the yoke and the yoke and it's mount ball then you may have a good enough set. This is another tough choice. Having changed a few hundred trannies in my 58 years of working on these things I learned one lesson very well. If the task is a real PITA then make sure you are only gonna do it once!. And laying under a jeep without the benefit of a lift and tranny jack really is a PITA.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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4x4M38
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Joined: May 30, 2014
Posts: 2910
Location: Texas Hill Country

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed!

For what a new throwout bearing costs is put a new
one in and stick that one on the shelf for spare.
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Brian
1950 M38
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http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=album372&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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zeke57
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Joined: Dec 28, 2017
Posts: 156
Location: Salamanca,NY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a mechanic look at my clutch he says it looks great like recently it had been replaced. I knew the disc and pressure plate looked good so I am assuming the throw out bearing would have been replaced at the same time but I know you cannot assume anything. Anything else I should check while I am in there?
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wesk
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pilot bushing in the flywheel. You can get details on this bushing by simply google searching for willysmjeeps pilot bushing and reviewing my photo album and of course there is the manual as well.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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zeke57
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Joined: Dec 28, 2017
Posts: 156
Location: Salamanca,NY

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked through my five manuals(TM9- 8014,TM9-8015-1,TM9-8015-2,ORD9 SNL G-758 and a universal jeep service manual) and could find very little information on when to replace the pilot bushing. All I got was replace if worn or damaged. So how much wear is allowable if any? I stuck a deep well socket in the bushing that fit pretty tight and this is what I found. Using a clock face for reference between one and five o'clock there is roughly a 1/32'' gap where the socket is not in contact with the inside diameter of the bushing while the remainder of the circumference is tight. Now whether that is the case all the way through the bushing I cannot tell. Please weigh in anyone. Also is there another manual that would be of more help and also provide torque specs for the jeep? Thanks everyone.
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think about this for a moment.

1 - What piece rides in that bushing? OH! the tranny input shaft.

2 - What is the specified clearance between the inside of the bushing and the input shaft's outside diameter? There is not a specified number listed in the manuals description of the bushing inspection. Just as we do with torques that do not have a specific torque listed during the assembly of that part we look up the general torque for that size fastener used in tension or shear applications. Well if you google standard machine clearances you'll see that a running fit is .002 to .003". Now you can mic the shaft's tip OD and the bushing's ID and if the numbers are more than .003 apart install a new bushing.

This little guy can ruin your day down the road. For example, it is not uncommon for these T90's to jump out of 2nd and 3rd when they start getting tired. The newby will pop up here without reading the manual and ask what can we tell him to do. Another newby says, Well I found it was my synchronizer brass gears and installed new ones. So wham the newby jumps under the jeep, spend 3 hours pulling the tranny and transfer case and puts in a new set of synchro gears. Spends another 3 hours putting her back together and she still jumps out of 2nd & 3rd!!! Newby comes back on the site and explains what happened. He gets lucky this time and an old timer replies: "Did you check the clearance on the pilot bushing? Did you check the main shaft and countershaft bearings? The newby says no & no. Back under the jeep and here we go again.

Had the newby researched the manuals on the topic, then googled "willysmjeeps pilot bushing" and "willysmjeeps tranny jumps out of gear" he could have read the last 15 years worth of replies on this topic and now armed with all the "What ifs" he can do the job only once this time.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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zeke57
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Joined: Dec 28, 2017
Posts: 156
Location: Salamanca,NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I researched the best I could as was suggested including my manuals and willysmjeeps but I did not resolve my issue. I have no problem putting in the work to correct whatever the problem may be but lacking the experience and not wanting to make things worse by possibly installing a part incorrectly or not having the tools to do the job is probably why it appears that I am avoiding wanting to do more than is necessary. If I have to change the pilot bushing that is ok but I want to be able to do it right the first time. Is there a manual that would explain in depth how to change the bushing and tools required? As I stated in my previous post I searched through my five manuals and willysmjeeps and found very little information about changing the bushing. If someone could suggest a manual I would be happy to pick up a copy.
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zeke57
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Location: Salamanca,NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I viewed your photo album Wes and saw the one where you show where to lubricate the clutch pivot points with black moly. My local napa has Schafer #274 moly would that be sufficient? If not please recommend one. Thanks.
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wesk
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Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I stated in my previous post I searched through my five manuals and willysmjeeps and found very little information about changing the bushing. If someone could suggest a manual I would be happy to pick up a copy.


You mention your M38A1 manuals and a civvy manual. You don't say which civvy manual. In 1971 when I bought my 42 GPW I bought the army manuals and the CJ2A factory manual SM-1002. In 1986 when I bought my M38A1 I bought the army manuals and the CJ5 series Factory Manual SM-1046. Hopefully you have one of these two high quality Willys/Kaiser Factory Service Manuals. The Army manuals are good but they assume you are an experienced motor pool mechanic. The Factory manuals allow for some degree inexperience.

I believe, based on your posts, that you are not finding the data you seek but not because it's not there. Instead because you are not yet experienced with using these manuals.

Here's what is in them:


Your TM 9-8015-1 M38A1 Eng & Clutch






My Civvy Factory manual SM-1002 I purchased back in 1971.






My copy of the Jeep Factory Manual for the CJ5 (M38A1) I purchased in 1986.





Try to keep in mind that the writers of these manuals were usually not experienced mechanics. Most were colledge educated "Technical Writers".

Keep in mind that the flywheel is usually primarily covered in the engine chanpter and not the clutch chapter.

Keep in mind, until you become intimately familiar with your manuals use the index and table of contents to help you locate all possible search avenues.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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wesk
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Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My local napa has Schafer #274 moly would that be sufficient?

Any quality black molly paste lube will work. These are not high pressure type contact areas so this is not that critical.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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zeke57
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Joined: Dec 28, 2017
Posts: 156
Location: Salamanca,NY

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at my universal jeep manual again I did indeed read the "pilot bushing inspection'' section but it just stated replace "if worn or damaged" so that was not much help. In the TM9-8015-1 I was looking under the clutch section because that is where I was assuming any information pertaining to the clutch would be. Sorry to make more work for you Wes like you said I have to learn to properly use the manuals. TM9-8015-1 states to replace the pilot bushing exceeds 0.623 inside diameter is the input shaft not 0.625. I would have measured it before asking but I do not own calipers but they are on my list of tools to buy. One other thing I ripped the top cover gasket on the transmission is it ok to just Permatex it or go by the book and use proper gasket?
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4x4M38
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Joined: May 30, 2014
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Location: Texas Hill Country

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said, Using a clock face for reference between one and five o'clock there is roughly a 1/32'' gap where the socket is not in contact with the inside diameter of the bushing while the remainder of the circumference is tight.

If the bushing id is out of round it must be replaced.

You can use something besides a gasket for the top cover, but the gasket makes it somewhat easier to remove and replace the cover.

Throwout bearings and pilot bushings are some of the cheapest things to buy for a jeep. The expense and work comes in replacing them when they do fail.

Just my humble opinion.
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Brian
1950 M38
MC11481
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=album372&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without mic'ng the shaft I do not know exactly what diameter it is. The book says the max wear limit is .623 so that makes it clear to me that the shaft is less the .623.

Quote:
TM9-8015-1 states to replace the pilot bushing exceeds 0.623 inside diameter is the input shaft not 0.625. I would have measured it before asking but I do not own calipers but they are on my list of tools to buy.


Just what tools to buy, what tools to borrow or rent and when to take the part to a shop when highly specialized tooling is needed is a tough path to determine your course on.

I have been a professional Aircraft Mechanic since 1966 and before that my hobby was building cars and racing them. Now I still am a full time professional aircraft mechanic and I still love vehicles and their restoration and operation are my current hobby.

When I need a tool I usually buy it. I have a service van with a complete set of tools. I have a complete set of tools in my garage. I have two more tool sets in two aircraft hangars I spend a lot of time in. If it is an expensive tool that I will not use routinely then I compare the cost of renting to buying. If it is a very highly specialized tool that I will rarely use I usually try to find a way to rent or borrow if I can't get the object to a properly equipped facility that can do it for me.

You will have to choose your own path but do not take a shortcut on accurate measuring tools. Unless you have a lot of spare time on your hands for all those trips to the automotive machine shop to hire measurement taking help there are a few measuring tools you must have on hand. A caliper is handy but only reasonably accurate. A dial caliper is a wee bit better. But an inside & an outside micrometer are an absolute necessity at least in a 0-3" range. If you intend to rebuild your own engine then you must consider the 0-5" range. You don't have to buy top shelf and watching garage sales and estate sales you will be very surprised what you will find in tooling!

I think you got my point on the need to get very familiar with your manuals. They belong on the bench right along side of you everytime you wrench on the jeep. If you can't afford paper copies of everything then at least gather up PDF copies of every one you can find. Then but a half dozen cheap 1" or 2" 3 ring binders and a 3 hole punch and each time you do a lengthy job on the jeep print the pages for that job and 3 hole punch them and put them in an empty binder. Felt tip the Manual Number and title on the spine and front of the binder and put it up on a shelf over the bench. Start a new 3 ring binder for each different manual as you have a need for them. You will be amazed at how fast you end up with almost complete paper copies of each.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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zeke57
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Joined: Dec 28, 2017
Posts: 156
Location: Salamanca,NY

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was looking at micrometers on ebay and there are tons of them from $10 and up. To just mic the pilot bushing hole would the cheapies be ok for now?
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