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willysmjeeps.com :: View topic - M38A1 with mismatched serial plates
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M38A1 with mismatched serial plates
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wesk
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: M38A1 with mismatched serial plates Reply with quote

I got this as a PM and felt it would be a nice addition to the learning pool on this site.

Quote:

Quote:
I have an early M38A1 with mismatched data plates. The dash serial number is 40732, date of delivery 2/53. The data plate behind the passenger seat is 38078. I'm inclined to believe the 38078 to be original to the jeep. I've searched the web and can't find anything in that range to determine a date of delivery. I'm not sure if I have a late 52 or 1/53 delivery date. Can you give me any insight?


My experience over the last 45 years of jeep fun is when the tub plate doesn't match the dash plate it is because:

1 - The tub was a replacement used unit and the original jeep owner forgot to salvage both his dash plate and tub plate getting only the dash plate. This is usually the case when both plates look period correct in their aged appearance.

2 - The owner had no serial for his jeep and overlooked the tub plate and bought a used dash plate for his dash and title.

3 - If the dash plate looked too new then the owner had a title but was not aware of the painted over tub plate and put the title serial on his new dash plate.

What leads you to believe 38078 tub plate is the original to the jeep?

MD38078 was a Late Dec 52 / early Jan 53 unit.

MD40732 was a Feb 53 unit.

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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php


Last edited by wesk on Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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cobra5
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the USMC jeep with mismatched numbers.






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1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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wesk
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both serial plates have a ton of originality in their appearance. But the reasons I gave you above for mismatched serial plates still stands. The most apparent in this jeep is the tub was swapped at some point in it's life. Rather then trying to rationalize which plate has the older appearance I would suggest you concentrate on a thorough inspection of the tub's relationship to the chassis.

Trying to sort a Dec 52/Jan 53 M38A1 from a Feb 1953 M38A1 is extremely difficult since they share the same traits from the factory. Both had the hinged grill, both had the turn fastener battery box cover, both came with the fording equipped venting system and both came with the early frame rails.

From the evidence you have provided the best assumption is that the tub from MD38078 was mounted on MD40732's chassis and the person who did the sawp ignored or overlooked the tubs Patent Plate serial tag, and swapped his original jeep's dash serial plate set to this one.

You did drop a little interesting tidbit in your last post. "USMC M38A1". This could be a significant clue but one must know more about the jeep.

1 - Was the tub undercoated?
2 - Was the frame undercoated?
3 - Are the drive axles positraction?
4 - Which front and rear chassis tie downs are on your frame?
5 - Is USMC mentioned on the lower left dash plate?
6 - Are there any overstamped corrections on any of the dash plates?

For your answer to be helpful you will need to answer all 6 questions.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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cobra5
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes,

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Don’t Know Yet
4. Front and rear shackles. What type should be installed?
5. No
6. No
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1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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cobra5
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First two photos show evidence of data plates missing.





Contract Number DA33019ORD630



Forest green paint runs in three areas on top left that are under data plates. Sorry the phone doesn't capture the color that good.


_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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keats
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the small missing plate on the dash data plate is for the winch if your jeep had one. If your jeep did not come with a winch, it won't have that plate and the spot would be left empty like yours. I have no idea what plate could have gone on the side of the data plate
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Gary Keating
1949 C3A, 1952 M38,
1954 M170, 1957 Cj3B
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BobW
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The larger missing data plate could have been a radio data plate.
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Bob W. Monticello, NY. 1952 CJ3A, 1952 M38, 1950 CJV-35/U
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wesk
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on your answers your jeep:

1-was built & delivered to The US Army under contract # DA 33-019-ORD-630. This is determined by the lower left plate. Army Ordnance is listed in both blocks. Thru 1954 all US Military Tactical Wheeled Vehicles were procured thru the US Army Ordnance Command. If the vehicle was ordered for the US Marines then the first block on the tag will be Ordnance & the 2nd block will say USMC Depot.

1-Post a detailed (use a real digital camera) picture of a closeup section of the tub underside.

2-Post a detailed (use a real digital camera) picture of a closeup section of the frame.

3-Jack each end of the jeep and turn the tire on one side of the axle. If the opposite wheel turns backwards it is not posi. If the opposite wheel turns the same way it is posi.

4-standard Army lifting shackles mean US Army owned the jeep.

5-Lack of USMC in both blocks means the US Army or Air Force owned the jeep.

6-Post a detailed closeup photo of the full set of dash plates together.

You keep referencing one of the paint areas as USMC Forest green. I don't see any 24052 Forest green in your photos that I could positively ID as 24052. It is best to use quality digital camera photos in the 500K to 1 meg file size for detailing colors of the jeep. Also you should always shoots your photos of shaded areas that have little exposure to the sun. Behind the dash plate set (Whole Big Plate) is a good place to look and shoot. The only photos I found in your G503 account that had any shaded area that I could review was this shot of the battery box where the cover overlapped the top of the cowl paint a wee bit.


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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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cobra5
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First two photos are the front and rear shackles.




Best I can do on the photo of the paint.


The tub and frame are undercoated


Here are some bumper markings


This jeep doesn't have posi and since I bought it in a package deal with another one that was a somewhat older restoration attempt, I checked that one too and it doesn't have posi either. My conclusion is that the dash plates are not original but I believe the rear plate is original. I believe the front plates were added so that the owner could get a title. Yes it has a title and the dash plate is the vin number they used. I also feel that the posi was replaced by someone after it was destroyed. Cheaper and more common to find a non posi especially if your jeep is a ranch or hunting rig. The jeep is still 24 volts and pretty beat up with a few bubba mods. The instrument cluster is gone and in its place are modern gauges for oil pressure and water temp. They drilled holes in the dash to install the gauges. There is an ignition switch and at some point in its life the keys were lost so in order to crank it you have to hot wire across the back side of the switch and press the floor starter button. The speedometer was removed but I found the cable sitting inside the right front fender. Surprising enough this thing does run and sounds healthy but I wouldn't consider it driveable. No knocking, tapping or blue smoke.
Its not import to me if it was a USMC or Army jeep. I just did some research and discovered that mine is either a Jan or Feb 53 delivery. I found a serial number with a Jan delivery that is 651 units earlier than mine. So if anyone has a serial number close to 38078 I'd like to hear about it.
_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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wesk
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



This new sample is also too faded to offer an accurate guess as to original color.

The front end of your frame has some period Identifying attributes as well. The inside of the front frame rails between the bumper and the grill have several differences base on production date.


1st series.


2nd series. (Note this view shows the front frame shackle mount.

http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gallery/albums/album149/Lt_Frt_1963.jpg
3rd series.


Here you can see the difference between the USMC front shackles and the US Army.


Early vs late M38A1 Pass seat support right side.

On a different note, I retired from the USAF in 89 as a MSgt 43172 at Ellsworth. What was your AFSC and what year did you retire?
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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cobra5
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes,
First off I downloaded your survey and started filling it out for both of my jeeps. I will get them to you as soon as I can.
I was a 45474 and retired in 05.

Ok for some reason I tried to post this in the last comment and realized I double posted the same photo. So here are the bumper markings I found. It appears to be III followed by a delta symbol.


Front view


I found what appears to be an aluminum foil tag on the inside of the glove box. Any idea as to what it might be? I will attempt to clean it off if its important.

_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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wesk
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh, you were an aircraft plumber! Wink The Hydraulic troops really earned their pay on the Old D model buffs. G & H's weren't so bad. The 141's and KC's were also nice. What aircraft types did you maintain?

That decal is usually the note on the use of the bell housing pipe plug when fording the jeep. The pipe plug is stored in the glove box when not fording which leaves an open drain in the bellhousing.

Your front shackles are definately USMC. The Marines used very few markings on their jeeps. Usually only hood # and Division markings.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wes,

Yea I was a bubble chaser and you guys were the booger hookers Razz
I worked on F4E, F16, C-9A, B-1B & KC135R
_________________
1951 M37 WOW, 1953 M37 WOW, 1954 M37 WOW, 1953 M38-A1, 1954 M38-A1, 1964 M151-A1, 1967 M151-A1, 1968 M151-A1, 1978 M151-A2, 1989 M35A2C, 1965 M416, 1966 M416, 1967 M416
MSgt, USAF Retired 1/84-10/05
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wesk
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you guys were the booger hookers


That's a new one I hadn't heard. When I retired in 89 the FMS folks were still calling us crew chiefs "Nose Pickers"!

I am self employed and run my own one man FBO maintaining civilian light aircraft and I have to do the hydraulic work myself now.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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dpcd67
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triangles are used by armored units in the Army; I know nothing about the USMC except what I see on Gomer Pyle; I saw a nice M601 on it recently. I know less about the USAF; just that I used to call in A-10 fire. And I had to sit facing backwards on their airplanes.
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M38 23100 June 51
M38 34523 Sep 51
M606/CJ3B 1964 Kaiser 57348 118458
M37B1 1963
Willys MB 1944
Ford GPW 1942
Dodge WC63 1943
Dodge Power Wagon WM300 1967
Plymouth Barracuda, 1973, 340 4 barrel
All ground up restored by me.
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