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Early or Late
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Naugha
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:17 pm    Post subject: Early or Late Reply with quote

I will soon (hopefully) reassemble the engine/starter/bell housing components of my M38 (24v) and have most/all of the parts appropriate for an ‘early style’ vehicle according to thread & album info. .... along with some other ‘late style’ parts that came with the jeep.

I am, however, still unclear about the terms ‘early’ & ‘late’ as they apply to my jeep.

The serial# on the dash and behind seat tag is MC52408
Engine MC83869. (which I understand has little meaning here)

Is the early style 24v starter, early style bell housing, 124 tooth fly wheel and early plate I have on hand appropriate for my ‘motor pool’ M38..... or am I again asking the wrong questions?

Will add some pics later.
Just trying to get it right the first time before moving on to electrical.
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Don Alvarez
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RonD2
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion only. You have a great knack for asking several dozen or more questions rolled into one.

The M38 ORD9 is pretty good about specifying the serial number cut-off ("before and after") for "early and late" for any particular part you care to name. If the ORD9 doesn't specify a serial number cut-off, then according to Willys and the U.S. Army, it don't matter. Any original part will do.

You have to pay attention very carefully to all this, because many crucial "early or late" issues and serial number cut-offs are highly interdependent on each other for fitment and working properly. Only a careful study of the manuals and the knowledge in this forum will let you know the trip hazards (mistakes can be expensive).

Throw in the variable that after 70 years your M38 has had a lot of hands on it (and maybe not original data plate serial numbers!)---- which only adds to the potential confusion.

I learned a long time ago with any particular part or question to carefully compare what I think I have with what I actually have. Often times many surprises. Wes has straightened me out on the subtleties more that I care to count (a good thing).

Your question needs to be a lot less broad and much more specific, and include good photo's if you want good answers.

The range of what's "appropriate" for your "motor pool" M38 is very wide.

I get it. Not much help for your bell, 124 tooth flywheel, and engine plate question. It's all in the TM and many posts in this great forum.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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RonD2
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neglected to mention the quality and availability of some parts purchasing decisions during the course of your build. In my experience, deciding about "early or late" should take into consideration and carefully evaluate whether or not a quality part is still available in the market (shrinking every day), and how long in the future it might still be available. This can be very hard to evaluate with some items.

With some crucial and interdependent parts, can you determine if more "early" or "late" parts are out there? Cascade effect sometimes one thing leads to another. Like starting out to remodel a bathroom and ending up tearing the kitchen apart...

We had a common old saying in the Marine Corps: "two is one, and one is none." It might pay to keep that in mind with these old trucks.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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Xamon
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the thing, in my opinion, with a motor pool restoration is that anything that would have been on the jeep, early or late, is correct. The serial of your jeep matters less there, say it needed a new engine and what that particular shop had on hand was an early setup even if your jeep had a late setup it gets the swap. And the same for anything else, it needed a replacement part and they grabbed what was on the shelf.
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Carievale Saskatchewan Canada
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Naugha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xamon wrote:
Here is the thing, in my opinion, with a motor pool restoration is that anything that would have been on the jeep, early or late, is correct. The serial of your jeep matters less there, say it needed a new engine and what that particular shop had on hand was an early setup even if your jeep had a late setup it gets the swap. And the same for anything else, it needed a replacement part and they grabbed what was on the shelf.


Maybe others can address the "motor pool" interpretation but there is also the issue of compatibility between 'early' and 'late' components.

I will try to be more methodical and address things one at at time, usually starting with a check of the general info I think I found in the manuals, threads and albums. If my general understandings are correct, then I will present pics and more fully present my question.

Here are some basic things I need to check for accuracy...... am I correct to think that .....

* Several threads teach us the MC engine in a M38 could have come from a variety of sources and is almost never the original.

* I think this means the terms early/ late/ before & supersedes refer to parts or assemblies, not to vehicle numbers?

* I see 'early & late' mostly used in album pics to describe a part.

How far off are my assumptions?
Yeah. thats three questions. Sorry.
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Don Alvarez
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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don,

Your best and most complete reference on the many changes in our M38 jeeps is the two parts manual ORD 9 SNL G-740 dated 1951 and 1955. My early M38 serial listing listed the key changes at their serial cutoffs as well.

M38 Database: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/downloads/M38SNDB.pdf

ORD 9 1951: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=176

ORD 9 1955: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=95
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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4x4M38
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have dash MC11481, with the two hole electrical opening. Several things point to backups for the early serial.

However, sometime in its life in the military it received a powerplant transplant. Block has been decked, has a rebuild plate on it, the later bell housing, plate and starter, and a later T90.

It got the later config I’m sure because that was what was sitting on the floor nearby.’

Can you mix parts as long as they would have been approved as replacements in a motor pool resto? Yep.
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Brian
1950 M38
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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Here are some basic things I need to check for accuracy...... am I correct to think that .....

* Several threads teach us the MC engine in a M38 could have come from a variety of sources and is almost never the original.
Yes with the clarifications: Seldom not Never Original. The majority of M38's ended up in the civvy world with MC or RMC engines in them.
* I think this means the terms early/ late/ before & supersedes refer to parts or assemblies, not to vehicle numbers?
Either way. Verbal references to early can often call out a specific serial number; and early or late can also call out a part number. You'll have to learn to deal with terms by assessing the entire content of the discussion.
* I see 'early & late' mostly used in album pics to describe a part.
Actually I see early/late used to describe chronology of parts and vehicle appearance.
How far off are my assumptions?
Not far but you must usually use the big picture to qualify the details.

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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Can you mix parts as long as they would have been approved as replacements in a motor pool resto? Yep.


I think you should first clarify the known classes of restorations for these M38's.

1 - Factory Class: As delivered to the Army from the factory. (It must be as it rolled off the line. No more/no less!
2 - Motor pool class: As configured to a specific period in it's military career. As it would have been traditionally maintained during that period.
3 - Driver: Maintained driveable usually with very little modification and parts swapping.
4 - Resto Mod: Big engines, Big tires and any other aftermarket goody that the owner finds attractive.

Quote:
as they would have been approved as replacements


I have never seen enough valid documented evidence of what was acceptable to a functioning motor pool of the specified period that would be needed to take parts substitutions to this limit.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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Naugha
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4x4M38 wrote:
Can you mix parts as long as they would have been approved as replacements in a motor pool resto? Yep.


Excellent.

May I make the logical jump that such permission to use ‘mixed ‘ M38 parts was not rare, and because permission was somewhat common, many/some of the M38 survivors were ‘motor pool restos’ with real M38 parts but not necessarily from the same factory run, as long as the parts were compatible

....and

Because a very well executed ‘Civilian Resto’ using real/take off/NOS M38 parts (maybe a few good repops) would be almost indistinguishable from an actual ‘motor pool resto’, the fine folks down at the MVPA made a restoration category for these very well done vehicles.... not factory perfect in their combination of M38 parts..... but very much like what eventually left the military motor pool and was sold as surplus to the public or given to Fire Depts., Forestry etc.?

Bubba was handed the keys. A few decades passed and here we are, recreating a moment in the youth of the vehicle.

I’m heading to the motor pool and the map is right here.

.
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RonD2
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a look at your copy of the September 1955 ORD9. In the introduction on page 2, paragraph 5, the Army bothers to note that two different serial number locations are provided (complete vehicle serial number on the dash plate, and the engine serial number on the water pump boss). Does it matter?

With that in mind, if you look through the ORD9, you will find parts described with the note "used on ENGINES before/after serial number XXXXX".

You will also find various parts described with the note "used on VEHICLES before/after serial number XXXXXX".

If you look real close at some of these notes throughout the ORD9, one might think that somebody wasn't paying close attention to using the words "ENGINE" and "VEHICLE" accurately. In many instances, serial number call outs for engines and vehicles are the same, which seems to me likely not true.

My point: I've discovered many inconsistencies, typo's, and obvious errors not only in every Army TM I own, and also in the venerable M38 Reference Guide. Some are serious, many aren't so much. All my books are well marked up in the margins to remind me to "trust, but verify".

You sure can mix and match any parts you want for a motor pool or resto-mod --- so long as they fit together and work properly. Only one out of a thousand folks will ever know the difference. I think for us, 70 years later, these notes in the ORD9 are simply meant as pretty good clues about what works and what doesn't.

The good advice remains --- not to assume anything. Trust, but verify (before grabbing a wrench). Or things can get expensive fast (faster than need be anyway). We're free to make our M38's into anything we want, or as far as the wallet will allow. I remain thankful for this forum --- it's the best trust but verify and sanity check on the planet. Doing my M38 without this great tool would be a lot more painful than need be.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
as long as the parts were compatible


This phrase does not fit in with a scored restoration system. Compatible parts are used where folks do not care about points lost in a scored resto. Original NOS or Takeoff parts are used where folks are worried about a scored restoration loosing points. I think you need to decide what you are actually doing with your jeep. Do you intend to enter it in official restoration competition? If you do then your only choices are Factory new Resto or Motor pool resto. Both require original NOS or takeoff parts. If you are building a daily driver which you want to resemble a real M38 as close as it can be reasonably made to then play with compatible parts. Compatible parts are parts that by modification or minor tweaking can be made to fit and function. If you are building a Resto Mod then there are no rules.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In many instances, serial number call outs for engines and vehicles are the same, which seems to me likely not true.


I would like you to post a few examples of this. We all know just as well as the army knew the engine serials never matched the chassis serials and I don not recall any entries in the ORD 9's that implied the serials ever matched.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

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RonD2
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Wes,
September 1955 ORD9 is a good example, both on page 31:

PLATE, engine, rear, both G740-8328047 and G740-7375029. These 2 plates reference being used before and after engine serial number 74419. Engine serial number 74419 is all over this section in many places.

STUD, 9/16-12 (plugging,flywheel housing)(used to attach HANGER G740-7411681 when winch is used) H101-0103260, (used on vehicles after serial number 74419.

I imagine that the word "vehicle" used for the stud is a typo and should be "engine" instead? Or perhaps the serial number 74419 is wrong for that part? Hard to tell which way the error flows for sure?

I recall others like this example, but will have to page through my ORD9 for more. I only pencil marked them if I noticed it doing research. I didn't search the entire manual for them.

I also didn't check-compare to the other ORD9 edition or try to research them any further than writing a note in the margin. The September 1955 is my paper-bound copy. It's quite possible I'm missing something or the correct answer to the error is obvious to others except me.
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Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

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wesk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
PLATE, engine, rear, both G740-8328047 and G740-7375029. These 2 plates reference being used before and after engine serial number 74419. Engine serial number 74419 is all over this section in many places.

STUD, 9/16-12 (plugging,flywheel housing)(used to attach HANGER G740-7411681 when winch is used) H101-0103260, (used on vehicles after serial number 74419.


The first one is correct.

The second is clearly a typo committed by a tech writer with no technical background. The proper wording should have been; "Used on bellhousings on engines after serial 74419". The reason is obvious since the bell housing changed along with the engine casting at engine serial 74419. And this correction is probably among the 30 to 50 interim changes to that ORD 9 that you do not have copies of.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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