M38 SEMS screws

[RonD2]

I’m trying to sort out what may be a knot of errors and/or typos in the September 1955 ORD9 again. By my count the M38 uses 70 of these SEMS bolts (screws) size ¼-20 x 5/8 in the dozen locations listed below. On page 287 the original SCREW is described as having an INTERNAL tooth lock washer, then it was superseded by a BOLT, also described as having an INTERNAL tooth lock washer, but then the ORD9 describes it as having both internal tooth and external tooth lock washers depending on which page you look.

Searching threads in the forum yielded no joy I could find. If I had to guess, it looks to me like they should probably be described as internal tooth everywhere listed (all reference to external being an error-typo). They're all long gone on my M38. Your experience with original M38's and opinions would be much appreciated!

Naturally, they’re hard to find. I’ve never seen any NOS or take-offs. MWM offers them new, and described as ½ inch instead of 5/8 inch, recessed hex-head and otherwise looking correct, but fairly pricey at $1 each (yikes!) plus shipping. I’ve not quite saved up for 70 of them yet, and aren’t sure that I want to. It's just pencil notes in the ORD9 margins for now. I did find a place that has ¼-20 x 5/8 EXTERNAL tooth recessed hex-head bolts for 20-cents each (if you buy 600), but no INTERNAL tooth.

Listed as:
Bolt, Integral Lock Washer, hex-hd, header-pt, S, cd or zn-pltd, ¼-20NC-2 x 5/8, Ordnance Stock Number H101-0425380, Ordnance Part Number 425380
and
Screw, int-teeth-lock washer hex-hd, S, cd or zn-pltd, ¼-20NC x 5/8 (superseded by BOLT, H101-0425380), Ordnance Stock Number G740-7372885, Mfr Part Number WO-673600, Ordnance Part Number 7372885

Listed and used in 12 places
Pg. 287, Qty 4, Bracket, hood catch, called INTERNAL tooth
Pg. 287, Qty 5, Hood hinge, called INTERNAL tooth
Pg. 299, Qty 4, Cover, access, brake cylinder inspection, called EXTERNAL tooth
Pg. 299, Qty 7, Cover, access, transmission, called EXTERNAL tooth
Pg. 299, Qty 22, Cover, front floor pan, upper, called EXTERNAL tooth
Pg. 300, Qty 6, Plate, access, engine heater cutout, called EXTERNAL tooth
Pg. 300, Qty 2, Plate, access, steering column, called EXTERNAL tooth
Pg. 300, Qty 2, Plate, access, transfer case bolt, called EXTERNAL tooth
Pg. 300, Qty 4, Plate, toe board, called INTERNAL tooth
Pg. 304, Qty 6, Bracket, top bow stowage, rear, called INTERNAL tooth
Pg. 324, Qty 4, Guard, headlight, NOT SPECIFIED
Pg. 324, Qty 4, Guard, taillight and trailer connection, NOT SPECIFIED

70 Total

The M38 Reference Guide (2nd Edition) page 154 appears to incorrectly attribute the bolt-screw to both the hood latch brackets on the fender and the catch on the hood (Catch, hood, page 287 of the ORD9, calls for plain machine bolts) or the total count would be 74 instead of 70.

Thanks!
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

[4x4M38]

Ron,
There’s no way I can verify the provenance of anything on my M38.

I did remove 1/4-20 internal lock washer, recessed head screws from my pans during tear down. I have nearly 30 of them, all 1/2” long.

I did find one 5/8” long screw in the box for the pan screws. It has an external lock washer.

Have fun with that!

Merry Christmas,
Brian
_________________
Brian
1950 M38
MC11481
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=album372&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[RonD2]

Thanks Brian, every little bit helps solve the puzzle.
And Merry Christmas to you too!
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

[G740]

Midwest Military has new sems bolts in 1/2 and 3/4" lengths in stock.
John

[RonD2]

Hi John,
Yes, I found your ad for them on fleabay at $1 each. You also mention in the ad to inquire about bulk pricing. Would enough to do one M38 with a few spares ( 75 ) qualify for bulk pricing?

Full disclosure transparency.....I also just found that AJP has them for 35-cents each. Would you match the price?

I'm recently retired and have to count beans carefully these days.
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

[wesk]

ROND,

Try to keep in mind that the ORD 9's we use are Army SERVICE Parts Manuals. The only place to determine down to each screw and washer wether a jeep is factory original or not is by checking the jeep against and the Army SERVICE parts manuals against the original factory production blueprints and production line change sheets. For the Army's purposes when they publish a ORD 9 they list most of the factory original parts they intend to stock and any suitable current in stock Army parts that can be substituted for original factory parts. The Army writers try to note each one by Identifying it in the ORD 9 as "For Service Use" but there are still many not marked this way.

The only place you will find these documents that I know of today are in the hundreds of Willys/Kaiser Jeep documents that Keith Buckley purchased during one of the last auctions at the plant in Toledo. Trust me when I say Keith is a very busy man and tries to help us out as often as he can. But I personally wouldn't ask him to help manually research correct factory screw lists.

Before you attack the Army's Manual Editors or Keith I would suggest you join the MVPA if you are not already a member and download the judging guides for the jeep models you are interested in and compare their factory class judging requirements against the ORD 9 items you have in question. Then armed with the Army's data and the MVPA's judging requirements run it by their contact list of Judges that are specific to your jeep models.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[RonD2]

Thanks Wes, but I wasn't trying to determine "factory original". I understand the ORD9 is a service parts manual and it's always been just fine with me. Errors, typos, warts and all.

I'm just trying to sort out that the same bolt (screw) part number is listed in 12 places on 5 different pages but the text description for that same part number says INTERNAL in 4 places, EXTERNAL in 6 places, and isn't specified one way or the other in 2 places.

If I went with the majority listings, it's an EXTERNAL tooth lock washer. But I'm pretty sure by the evidence that's not right. Asking folks in this forum for what they see is just another way to gather evidence. For each to decide.

It seems likely to me that this is a simple error, typo, or oversight by the Army to not use the same text description for the same part number in all 12 places. The manual was assembled long before computer copy & paste precision that we all know and love today.

I'm as sure as I can be that the correct bolt or screw from the factory and also used in service has an INTERNAL tooth lock washer.

I wasn't attacking anybody. Not sure how you got the idea that I was.

.
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

[WillysMotors]

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Ron,

I follow your posts here and on thecj2apage.
The 673600 was an internal lockwasher equipped part.

[RonD2]

Hi Keith,
Yes, page 287 in the ORD9 describes WO-673600 as an internal tooth lock washer.

Yet on the same page, the bolt that supersedes it says neither internal or external tooth (it says "integral tooth").

And then to compound it, each of the 12 listings for it go back and forth between calling it internal tooth or external tooth.

I'm fairly convinced that the actual screw (or bolt) is supposed to be (and is) internal tooth --- and it's the 5 or 9 errors and typos in the manual that are the source of my confusion.

Yup, I'm pretty easy to follow here and over on the G503 and CJ2A forums. I don't savvy that camouflage the name stuff among men. I hope it's more entertaining than aggravating?

Thanks! And Merry Christmas!
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

[WillysMotors]

The way I look at it if it has a WIllys Part number, it should be as described in the LOPN, the BOM, and on the Willys print.

If it has an Ord number but no Willys number, all bets are off.

Internal vs integral is typical of the mistakes in the SNL's.

[RonD2]

10-4 !
_________________
Ron D.
1951 M38 Unknown Serial Number
1951 M100 Dunbar Kapple 01169903 dod 5-51

“The only good sports car that America ever made was the Jeep."
--- Enzo Ferrari

[wesk]

In reply to RonD's original post again and in more detail:

[WillysMotors]

Thanks Wes

[4x4M38]

I wonder if they just went with 5/8” length for a large number of these screws, the length needed for a couple of places like the hood hinge. 1/2” being long enough for the floor plates, etc., but not the hood hinge and a couple other spots.

Maybe I’m overthinking this. There are one and two-offs all over these vehicles. Still, it Ute would have been handy to have cases of these 5/8” long screws around.
_________________
Brian
1950 M38
MC11481
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=album372&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[wesk]

That has been the Army's way of vehicle/aircraft maintenance logistics for 70 years. Commonality of parts between vehicles and on vehicles makes logistic support so much easier. I most of the Army Ordnance Contracts the OEM's were asked to use as much off the Army's shelf hardware as possible.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php