Starting Problem with OHV jeep engine

bulsi · Member Joined: Mar 17, 2008 Posts: 16

I am attempting to start an OHV 4 cylinder jeep engine which has a Delco alternator and a Delco starter which I believe was used by Jeep between 1966 and 1971. I finally figured out the primary wiring using a push button switch as well as a toggle switch to provide power to the coil. When the starter engages it will turn the engine a quarter turn,(based on fan movement) then the starter just spins as if the starter gear has lost contact with the ring gear on the flywheel. I can turn the engine over by hand so I know that it is not frozen. Both the starter gear and the ring gear appear to be in good shape. Unfortunately I don't have new hardware to tell how worn the gears are. What am I doing wrong? This engine has not been run in several years. I thought that I would start by getting the engine to turn over then I would provide fuel and see if I could get it running before determing if it was worth getting a body for it.

jeeper50 · Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject:

Does it have a good battery? Try a different battery to see if it turns over more than the 1/4 turn. jump it if necessary. make sure you have a good ground too.

Remove starter and check starter/ flywheel teeth for excessive wear.

carefully<big red warning flag here> pour a bit of fuel down the carb and making sure the coil is getting spark push the start button and let us know what it does. Have you put replaced or checked the points to make sure they are not pitted.
_________________
'53 CJ3B Hurricane, 5.38s, lockrights, koenig PTO winch. M606 conversion in progress.

In the land of the blind.... the one eyed man is king

bulsi · Member Joined: Mar 17, 2008 Posts: 16

The battery is new and fully charged. The ground is tight. I have not attempted the gas down the carb yet. The points are not pitted. The plugs are clean. The coil is getting 12 volts when I turn the toggle switch on. I wasn't concentrating on actually starting the engine until I could get it to turn over. The starter teeth on the gear appear to be ok. I say that because the teeth have points on each gear. The ring gear teeth are not pointed but are flat at the end of each tooth. All teeth are the same. I don't know if they are worn or not. I will attempt to provide photos of both gears for you to look at. I am not sure how to attach photos but will study this site figure it out. It appears that all I have to do is hit the "Img" button and attach the pics.
thanks again for your interest.

Wally[/img]

oilleaker1 · Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:36 pm Post subject:

If the engine fires or coughs, it will kick out the starter bendix and just spin the starter motor. You don't indicate this in your description. Does it re-ingauge on the next try? If so, your timing, fuel /choke mixture could be off or your tiiming to fire before TDC could be off. More info. needed to help you. John

bulsi · Member Joined: Mar 17, 2008 Posts: 16

I have not attempted to start the engine yet. I am only attempting to get the engine to turn over. When I hold the starter button down, I can get the engine to turn a quarter turn before the bendix kicks out. I can repeat this process several times. Sometimes it takes several trys before the bendix will re-engage but ultimately it will engage and go another quarter turn. My expectation is that without any power to the coil that as long as the starter is engaged, the engine will turn over without the bendix kicking out. As stated before, I will provide pictures of the starter gear and the ring gear. I am trying to understand why the bendix kicks out when it should stay engaged.

Wally

wesk · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:52 am Post subject:

On the military F134 engines when you push on the foot pedal to operate the starter you are physically engaging the starter's pinion gear with the teeth on the flywheel ring gear. This engagement is meant to be completed before the foot lever closes the electrical switch mounted on top of the starter. If you have worn or damaged teeth on either gear she can pop loose and spin freely. The things that must be checked are the condition of the pinion teeth, the ring gear teeth, the travel of the pinion when the foot pedal is fully depressed and the point at which the switch gets closed must be only after the gears are fulley engaged.

Delco made replacement starters, generators and regulators for the M38A1M170 F134 engine for the Army. So if you have them then what I described above applies to your equipment.

If what you have is civilian Delco equipment and there is no foot pedal then you must suspect one of the following causes:
1-Bendix spring is worn and weak.
2-Available electrical power is not adequate. (low voltage and bad grounds or connections)
3-Starter solenoid is bad or weak or has corroded/burned contacts.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

oilleaker1 · Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject:

I'm with Wes on this one. Always check the most obvious first. If you have the electric operated foot push button or key operated starter, The starter bendix is probably bad!!!! Wink

John

bulsi · Member Joined: Mar 17, 2008 Posts: 16

I have taken pictures of the starter gear and ring gear. I didn't realize that I can't upload from my computer without going through a public domain. After reviewing your iinformation, I am going to either get a new solenoid or send the starter out for rebuild. I have bench tested the starter. The solenoid engages the bendix when the push button switch is activated. Note that the switch is not the type that was described earlier(electo-mechanical). This is a NAPA switch that was used by Jeep between 55 and 57. It is strictly electical.I am guessing by your description that while the starter works on the bench, it is unable to stay engaged under load. I have opened the solenoid and cleaned the terminals. I will post the pictures ASAP.

Thanks for all of your help to date,

Wally
[/img][img][/img]

bulsi · Member Joined: Mar 17, 2008 Posts: 16

I have added some pictures to more clearly show what I am dealing with. The starter has been sent out for rebuild. Hopefully, I will have everything back together by the weekend.

Wally
[img]http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=9df2ba4faf67ae906cbbd47cbb382743[/img]

wesk · Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject:

Your Shutterfly link requires the viewer to be a member and use a password. Your easiest option is to open a photo album on our site here and post your photos there.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

oreo3156 · Member Joined: Jan 22, 2007 Posts: 95

I've seen different flywheels (number of teeth) Could be not meshing right, but I'm with Wesk on this one.
_________________
53 m38a1 63 cj3b

wesk · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:36 am Post subject:

Oreo brings up a good point. There are three different Willys/Kaiser CJ ring gears. 97, 124 and 129 tooth.

97 tooth ring gear is used on the WWII MB/GPW and the CJ2A and is used with an MZ4113 starter with a 10 tooth pinion.

124 tooth ring gear was used on the early CJ3A and M38 and was used with the 9 tooth pinion and small frame starters that use the small hole bellhousing with two 3/8" bolts fastening the starter.

129 tooth ring gear was used on the late CJ3A and M38 and later jeeps and was used with the 9 tooth pinion and large frame starters that use the large hole bellhousing with two 1/2"" bolts fastening the starter.

You can ID your ring gear just by measuring the width of it. No need to try counting all the teeth.

_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

bulsi · Member Joined: Mar 17, 2008 Posts: 16

Wes,
I took your advise and went to the photo album. I don't see any information on how I can set up my own photo album. Do I need an ID from Gallery or what is the correct procedure?

Thanks,

Wally

wesk · Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject:

Wally,
Here's the link to your album.
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Bulsi&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

bulsi · Member Joined: Mar 17, 2008 Posts: 16

I have successfully posted the photos in the Gallery under bulsi (page 7)
Since the last post, I have picked up the rebuilt starter. I plan to install it on Thursday. I will post results Thursday night.
Wally


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