Joined: Mar 13, 2006 Posts: 1079 Location: Richburg, SC
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject: M38a1 water pump - again!
OK, I've been going through the water pump ordeal for about a month now.
Plan 1) Thought I might rebuild it myself, so I ordered a kit. When pulling the impeller (with the wrong puller), I broke it. Put in an order for an impeller - got my order, but no impeller. Seems it was back ordered, but I wasn't informed of this - so I cancelled the order and looked for one elsewhere. Found a couple of dealers that had them, but the shipping was going to be almost double the price of the impeller (why can't dealers ship USPS - $7 flat rate shipping - I can't see paying $13 MINIMUM shipping charges)!
Plan 2) I scrapped the plan of rebuilding and was going to take a chance (against my better judgement and previous experiences) and buy an Omix Ada pump. Price was right (of course), even though I could have bought one at the local Oreilly for about $20 cheaper since there were no shipping charges with Oreilly. Anyway, the Omix pump arrived, I test fit it - the pulley was about 1/2" off. I called the dealer - they said a 20% restocking fee, I said forget it - you lost a customer.
I called a dealer out of Mil Veh magazine. He said his 800002 pumps are factory new from US Motor Works and built and assembled in the USA - I figured the number was correct and is made in the US, so it should be the right pump, right? I got the pump today - has a cast and milled pulley, and does not have 800002 cast into the pump body - can't really read the number, but definately not 800002. The dimensions and shape of the pump body are close though (compared to the Omix Ada one). The impeller is a different design than the 800002 pump I had. There is no retaining wire or openings where the bearing is. When I test fit it, the pulley was about 3/8" too far forward - a little closer than the Omix pump, but not useable like that. I just sent him an email asking what I can do to fix this, as there doesn't seem to be enough space between the back of the pulley and the face of the pump body to press it in farther.
Plan 3) I'm tempted to pull the pump off of my parts jeep and see if it will work without leaking to TOO MUCH. This is rediculous! There has to be a reproduction pump that will work. No offense to the parts dealers that are on this forum, but charging $115 to rebuild a pump IS a little pricey! And since there are only a couple of people that do it, we are stuck paying the price you all set or try to do it ourselves and screw it up - I guess that's just the way it goes in this game!
Plan 4) Iif I can't sell the Omix pump on ePayI'll try to press my original pulley onto it - unless the shaft is too small and there isn't enough of a pressed fit.
Plan 5) Back to Plan 1 and pay $27 for an $11 impeller and hope for the best rebuilding my pump
Plan 6) Pay one of the dealers to rebuild my pump off my parts Jeep.
As you can see, I am about burnt out on my 'A1 - nothing seems to be working out, I'm throwing wayyy too much money at it, and while installing my new (civvy) fuel pump last week, I noticed that the fuel pump lobe on the cam was nice and shiny - when I ran my finger around it, I saw that it was worn down! When I cranked it up (I'm still using the gas can on the cowl), it was pulling, but I doubt it will make enough pressure to run the engine correctly.
Anyway, I'll probably be wrapping the work on the 'A1 up in a couple of weeks because I am burnt out, broke, and it's starting to get cold out.
On an even better note, I sold my import water pump to a guy in Australia, and the guy I bought the second pump from is taking the return and paying return shipping (he even scheduled a UPS pickup at my house and sent the return lsabel)! I felt kindof bad for the guy in Australia for having to pay so much postage to get it though. So, I ended up not losing too much money on the whole deal - although I don't have a functioning pump yet!
Matt
Last edited by wilfreeman on Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
The pulley spacing issues and pump shaft diameter issues have been covered many times here and on the G503 board with the repop pumps.
The rebuild your own method is the best choice and you can do it yourself or send it out. The key to rebuilding these pumps is using the correct tooling and then follow the manual step by step.
I've always used stock parts but the seal replacement John Gibbons posted a while back here seems a very good way to go. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 Posts: 107 Location: ITALY - TUSCANY
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: A1 blues
Dear Wilfreman, Take heart! On my '52 A1 I just finished 10 days of similar superfrustration. Very briefly (I'm leaving out the gory details), it was belching black smoke, so I searched, downloaded and ran down the Black Smoke Checklist; since I had recently replaced the fuel pump (because of vacuum problems) I suspected too much fuel pressure - rebuild and switch pumps; still blacksmoking, so I switch out the carb after rebuilding the spare one - still smoking; read up on ignition systems, how to test components, etc.; rebuild spare distributor with old parts on hand; switch out the distributor; now won't start at all!; found some water in the air cleaner and remedied that (an earlier fording escapade); adjusted the intake valves just to be sure since the valve cover was off to access the carb holddown nuts); fuel tank started leaking, so switched out to the spare; jeep starts at 8:00 a.m. and dies after 20 seconds and will not re-start; sounds like fuel, so I rig up a gravity feed - nothing!; rebuild the other distributor with old parts testing everything (fuzzy logic applied here - i.e. if 3 out of 4 of my condensers show a resistance of x, the fourth one is bad). BTW my 3 coils never met the range of OHMS stated in the ignition download, but all were within 5% of each other - Therefore, all good (or all bad); put in the newly rebuilt distributor and EUREKA!!! It runs great. Must have been that 4th capacitor. FRUSTRATION BUILDS CHARACTER (or so they say)! Here's the hook: Once I got it running, I took it out for a 2 hour drive - what a pleasure - it made it all worth it. Check the lady out at page 9 of the photo gallery! Keep the faith, David
There's a lot of lessons to be learned in Dave's post as well. But since he said he left out the gory details we can't be sure of what proper steps in troubleshooting were or were not taken.
For example:
Quote:
since I had recently replaced the fuel pump (because of vacuum problems) I suspected too much fuel pressure - rebuild and switch pumps;
was an actual fuel pressure output gauge reading taken of the actual fuel pressure before deciding to go with a second pump?
For example:
Quote:
still blacksmoking, so I switch out the carb after rebuilding the spare one - still smoking;
was the crab opened and inspected to determine it's condition and if it really had any issues before substituting another carb?
For example:
Quote:
rebuild spare distributor with old parts on hand; switch out the distributor; now won't start at all!
was the original distributor open up, inspected and tested before moving on with a replacement. Were all the parts used in the assembly of the replacement distributor tested properly before installation?
Not trying to pick on Dave here. As I said he told us he has abbreviated his ordeal for the post here.
Just want to point out to glean the most from a post we must read between the lines and apply sound troubleshooting procedures to the task at hand.
For our posts to be a source of reliable information for our friends here we must make an extra effort to provide adequate description and detail.
Experienced mechanics will often post very abbreviated notes here making the assumption that the rest of the presumed trivial information is already understood by the hobbyist with the problem.
It is nice to keep the discussion going on the topic all the way through the solution but when one or two folks move some of the data exchange to the PM or email system then the data posted here is missing this info and responses can often cause a different result then expected.
Just some food for thought. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Nov 19, 2010 Posts: 107 Location: ITALY - TUSCANY
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: Scientific method - sort of
Wes, I tried. I really tried to follow all of the many invaluable lessons learned on the site.
1. I rigged up a pressure gauge from leftover plumbing parts. I got 8 psi of fuel pressure, but lacked confidence in my equipment and methods, so switched pumps. Call it blind obediance to the "What's the last thing that you screwed with?" approach.
2. I took the advice and took out the 4 screws fore and aft and examined the diaphrams and mixture rod, but having no prior experience, I wasn't sure whether they were OK or not. For example, one of the diaphrams had some puckers, but appeared not to be perforated. The mixture rod showed some shininess, but maybe that's OK - I didn't know. I pulled off the top of the carb, checked the float adjustment and float valve - all (apparently) OK, but I wasn't absolutely positive, so ... Solution: switch out the carbs.
3. Distributor - I took off the cover and checked the points, cleaned them and retried. Checked and cleaned the distributor cap. Had a spare rotor on hand and switched that. Installed a better-looking set of used points. Finally pulled the distributor and inserted my spare after giving it a thorough going over - including removing the suppressor on the 24volts power ingress (wire N. 12). Coil was checked against my other 2 and against Wes' figures. The primary (low) readings were within the stated range, but the high voltage side for all 3 coils was at 9,100 versus the 14,000 stated minimum. Heating the coils yielded a very slight increase in resistance to 9,400. I found no data on testing of the capacitor aside from looking at the points for arching. Since my points weren't arched, I figured the condensors were OK. When I finally switched the first distributor back in, it was after re-insulating the wiring, checking and rechecking everything and replacing the condensor with a spare one that gave a resistance in the same range as 3 of the 4 that I have lying around. (By the way, can anyone ever forget the joy of trying to re-connect the steel and copper tubes that go to the distributor or the resistance that they put up when you are trying to set the timing (again, by the book). Oh, yes, I also switched out my current sparkplug cables with some others that I had switched out 3 years ago.
In my opinion, Zen has something to do with it. We non-mechanics (I'm a lawyer by trade), with inadequate equipment and parts, are usually able to accomplish, in a matter of days, tasks that would take an average mechanic several minutes or hours. If we could only remember the lessons learned for the next time.
Bottom Line: It'a a great hobby that builds character and teaches patience and methodology. And thanks to this site and its members, we would-be bubbas are able to do it right (or almost).
Thanks Wilfreeman for sharing your horror story and Wes for sharing your expertise. Keep it going!
Condensers (capacitors) can be checked with an ohm meter to determine if they are not shorted. Touching one probe to the condenser lead and one to the condenser housing should show a steady climb in ohms with a sudden drop (discharge) to open. Then reverse the test leads and it should do the same thing. The ability of the condenser to function can be determined this way but just how good a shape it is in cannot. You will need a Capacitance Checker to do that. That measurement is taken in microfarads.
Always disconnect the two vent lines to the distributor when setting timing. Their presence is not needed for the timing check and adjustment. They should be copper by the way as most were changed in the field from steel to copper. Easier to work with. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Mar 13, 2006 Posts: 1079 Location: Richburg, SC
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:55 am Post subject:
I'm sorry for my rant yesterday guys! It has been a long week off working on this Jeep andhat pump not fitting yesterday just iced the cake! I took a step back and thought about my options again last night at work. Here's what I cam up with:
1) I will return the last water pump I bought (he is giving me a full refund - prepaid return shipping! I wish I could give the name, as he's a standup dealer that backs what he sells)
2) I'll continue to try to sell the import pump on ePay for 6 more days (this is the second time I listed it - I have a guy in Australia asking about shipping now), and if I can't sell it this time, I'll humbley call that dealer back and beg them to take it back if I give them a 20% restocking fee and pay the shipping!
3) I found a NOS impeller on ePay $15 and $5 shipping - I ordered it last night. I'll take my best water pump body and re-install the original shaft and pulley using the seal and washer out of the rebuild kit and the new impeller I just bought.
and finally,
4) I will test the fuel pressure (using a guage) to see if the cam lobe is worn out (which I suspect it is), and if it is, I will remove the new civvy pump and put a plate over the hole in the block and try to find an electric pump to use as a bandage until I can get the valve guides in my spare block replaced and reassemble that engine. The valve guides are bad in the engine I am running now, so I was planning on rebuilding the spare anyway.
So, I will try these things and see what comes next! Thanks for the continued support and help - it's great to have peolpe to lean on in times of need!
Oh, and by the way, I emailed Then and Now about a water pump rebuild (just to compare prices) - he said he sends his out to be redone and charges $165 + shipping! I guess everybody has to make something off of it, huh
Joined: Jun 21, 2010 Posts: 195 Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:47 am Post subject:
Ranting just seems to be a part of this hobby!
Life has a way of throwing curve balls at you when you just don’t need them and then the gremlins in this hobby rear their ugly heads. These jeeps have a way of making you work for the enjoyment of driving one or showing one at a car show.
Stay the course Matt and I can assure you that the rewards are more than worth it. That and you get to make lots of great friends along the way.
I have rebuilt a few water pumps myself and can assure you that it can be done; heck if I can do it almost anyone can do it.
Keep at it and enjoy the little victories and the friends you get to meet on here and in person, it’s more than worth it.
Pat Newman _________________ 1952 M38CDN (in progress)
1942 GPW 51859(in waiting)
M100 CDN #0548(in progress)
M100 CDN #0281
Joined: Feb 16, 2007 Posts: 206 Location: Gold Coast Australia
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject:
If you are rebuilding with a standard jeep kit that job will take about 15 minutes max after clean up. So these $100 plus overhaul costs are gouging.
On the other hand if the job is done fitting modern seals like from a pool pump or late model vehicle there is over an hours work so the $100 plus charge is not too far off the mark. If you never want to do the job again this upgrade repair is a no brainer, as they say.
BTW someone was saying there was no groove in the waterpump housing
of a pump they received. That is not uncommon & is not a problem as both housing types were used & I know which one I'd prefer to be doing.
One thing many miss is not measuring anything before pulling apart e.g. get a drill bit which fits perfectly between the fan pully boss & the bearing or waterpump housing. If you assembled & have the impeller on so the clearance is right & use the same drill bit to re-fit the fan pulley to the new bearing....everything must be right.
Re-fit the fan pulley the correct distance on the bearing before fitting the bearing to the water pump housing.
Insert in the waterpump & refit the clip if used.
Fit all the seal stuff not forgetting to lubricate the mating parts with graphite powder or silicone grease or brake fluid.
Carefully fit the impeller & push on until there is 0.004-6" clearance between it & the housing.
Job is done. DO NOT USE A HAMMER @ all & a vyce is good for pushing everything together.
_________________ John GIBBINS
ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician 2002 USA
Licensed Motor Mechanic NSW # MVIC 49593 Current
YOU CAN'T TROUBLESHOOT WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND
Last edited by artificer on Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Mar 13, 2006 Posts: 1079 Location: Richburg, SC
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:35 pm Post subject:
Thanks for the tips John - short and sweet! I've read through the manual and numerous posts on here - my only problem was that I didn't use the proper tool, and didn't take the time to locate one when tearing the old pump down (I also didn't do any measuring. So I busted the impeller, and it seemed that everywhere I found one, they were backordered (imported one), or they wanted twice as much shipping as the part cost (NOS parts)! Anyway, I took the quick, cheap route and burned myself - and it kept snowballing until I fell back, examined my options and regrouped. I think I'm back in the right mindset now, and I have a week back at work to wait on parts and plan my next move!
Joined: Mar 13, 2006 Posts: 1079 Location: Richburg, SC
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject:
Hey John,
Does the impeller need to be that close (.004 - ,006")? I tried to press mine down that close, and before I knew it I had broken the fiber washer and the impeller wouldn't turn. I figure 1/8" or slightly more would be as close as I could possibly go (impeller fins to water pump housing clearance).
On a slightly better note, I figured out how to get my water pump pulley lined up. I had to do 2 things. First, I had my generator support arm bolted to the wrong side of the generator (I had it on the radiator side) - I picked up about 1/4" there. Second, I had to press the pulley almost all the way down to the bearing - my shaft is protruding from the pulley surface about 1/8". I picked up about 1/4" there. Also, my generator puller isn't cocked and rubbing the belt to death anymore either.
So, my new question is "Where can I buy a fiber washer and seal ONLY?" My shaft/bearing is good and my impeller is new, so I only need the seal parts - I really only need a fiber washer and gasket, but I figured since the seal was compressed maybe I'll replace it anyway.
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- I picked up about 1/4" there. Second, I had to press the pulley almost all the way down to the bearing - my shaft is protruding from the pulley surface about 1/8". I picked up about 1/4" there. Also, my generator puller isn't cocked and rubbing the belt to death anymore either.
