F-134 Cylinder Liner gone bad. Help?

[PeteL]

I have a problem with a relined cylinder in my F-head (1952 M38A1-C). Hope someone has a bright idea. Or even no-so-bright would be welcome.

A full rebuild a while back included a sleeve installed to reline one cylinder. I began having "head gasket" symptoms and eventually pulled the head to find the sleeve has moved downward a few thousandths and is apparently allowing a gasket leak into the water jacket.

Dagnabbit! I can't believe it... the only part of the rebuild I didn't do my self!!!

Do these sleeves have a "stop" or machined step at the bottom as installed, or is it a friction-fit straight bore right on through to the crankcase? In other words, will it keep on slipping further? Or could I maybe somehow try try make it good at the top edge, where it is now? (Like a metal o-ring or something equally insane.)

Any ideas to help me avoid a total teardown? I'll try anything!

(This reminds me of a friend years ago who patched a motorcycle head gasket with a cigarette butt. Got him home! But I want to make a permanent fix.)

Thanks

Pete

[Cacti_Ken]

I resleeved a 9N Ford tractor about 24 years ago. I remove the original sleeves and installed new ones. That was the only resleeving job I have ever done. I never had a problem with it. But if I recall the sleeves had a lip on the top edge to to keep it from going down so it stayed even with the top of the block I still have and use the tractor today. Doesn't smoke or use oil. Oil stays clean.
Yours might not have been installed correctly. It shouldn't haved moved at all.
However, I don't know how cylinders are relined in engines that didn't have removable sleeves originally.
You ought to take it back to who ever installed it.
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Tropical Veteran
35th Inf. Reg. "CACTI" 4th I.D. VN
Amateur Radio K5XOM

[Ryan_Miller]

I agree with Ken,

I would take it back to the shop that resleeved that cylinder.

I am not an expert, but I think there should be a ledge or lip at the bottom left to keep the sleeve from sliding down.

Wes should have more insight on this.
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Ryan Miller
MVPA # 22010

[PeteL]

Thank you both. The work was done too long ago to go back to the shop.

The tractor sleeves are a "rebuild in a box" and yeah they work great. I was told Triumph sports cars used the same technology. Maybe even the same motor?

Unfortunately this F-134 problem requires a total teardown and complete rebuild (AGAIN), assuming a new sleeve can be done at a machine shop. (I am now pounding my forehead on quietly the desk and sobbing...)

I need a miracle product that could be poured in through the sparkplug hole!!! Or something, anything...

Pete

[Ryan_Miller]

I am suprised that Wes has not posted on this thread.

I will send him a PM and see what he thinks.

I would bet you need to take it to your local machine shop at the least. Maybe they can resleeve that cylinder for you.

Things could be worse, you could have a huge crack in the block or something.
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Ryan Miller
MVPA # 22010

[wesk]

I haven't posted because the only thing I can offer is a towell to soak up the tears with. There were to the best of my knowlege both straight and stepped sleeves available for the 134's. They're a tight fit so hammering it back up will need some method to increase the clearance for a few minutes like CO2 blasting the block just before you hammer. It only takes an 1 1/2 hours to pull these engines. I'd pop her out and drop her at the auto machine shop for a resleeve of that one hole. I don't see why you are anticipating a complete rebuild.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[PeteL]

Wes,

Well, you are probably right, but I anticipated the block would have to be stripped for the machine shop, and cleaning afterward. Am I mistaken?

Plus you know how one thing leads to another - "might's well do it right" and so on. As soon as I take the hood off I'll want to repaint it, and then fix the motor mounts, and then we are off to the races...

Thanks for the towel.

Pete

[Ryan_Miller]

Pete,

I think Wes knows best and you might be suprised as that engine may have been in need of something else and this could have saved you more expenses in the long run.

This gives you a chance to really check out the engine and if you decide, go for a total rebuild or at the least head off any other potential future problems.


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Ryan Miller
MVPA # 22010

[Cacti_Ken]

Pete, if you are still pondering on what to do with that engine, why do you go down there and talk to them. Find out what they require of you to take off for them to do the resleeve job. I realize engine work sometimes requires a handfull of bucks. So you'll have to make the decision on what you want done and how far to go with it. I had mine rebuilt, not just overhauled for 995.00 from a local reputable engine guy here. I haven't run it yet. But I don't have anxiety about how it will function. The engine is on it's second remanufacturing. The block and been bored out to .080 with new .080 pistion replacemants. I was concerned about that and asked wasn't that going alittle too far on the cylinders. His responce was that he had done many of these kind of engines and they have plenty of metal in them and not to worry. But any way that's a little on the story here. If it were me I would do it right. It only takes a liitle more money, and in the long run will certainly be worth it all.
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Tropical Veteran
35th Inf. Reg. "CACTI" 4th I.D. VN
Amateur Radio K5XOM

[DJ]

I woudn't think you would have to redo the whole engine. There used to be a guy around here that had a mobile machine shop, had it in a pickup with a utility box on it. He sleeved a cylinder for me in a 65 Ford truck,with engine still in it. Granted he retired some years ago,and I doubt you could get them out of the shop,but taking the motor out of a jeep is not a time consuming ordeal. 6 1/2 hours to pull motor,install new clutch,put motor back in(with only a question asking wife for help) and drive it out of garage.

[PeteL]

Thanks for all the great support, guys.

Ken, regarding the .80 over bores, I once had big problems with a V8 that got bored and decked to where the compression ratio became too high for the octane of modern gas.

But Jeeps are such low compression anyway, I doubt this applies here. Just a thought.

Thanks again, all.

Pete

[Ryan_Miller]

Pete,

Talk to your machine shop, I have been told by several that the low compression of these engines allows 0.80 boring.

I went ahead and had my engine resleeved, but they machine out a lip at the bottom to prevent slipping of the sleeve or so they told me that is what they were going to do!
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Ryan Miller
MVPA # 22010

[wesk]

The compression is not the real issue. It's the porosity of the cylinder walls and how thin you are making them. There are only two ways to confirm the wall thickness remaining in the cylinder wall after an .080 overbore. Ultra sound inspection (expensive) or run it a while and see if it holds up. It is really a PITA to have to do anything twice. Most quality shops will not take her out to .080 OS. Most will stop at .040 and some will push it to .060.
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Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[PeteL]

The problems I had were on a Jeep pickup with a 360 V8, but it seemed that the compression was raised enough to cause knocking, since the engine was built in the days of high octane leaded gas. Ended up destroying a piston.

Your info on porosity is very interesting.

Pete