Question about steering stops

[32sbct]

In the picture below you can see what I am calling a steering stop. It is the welded on bolt that prevents the tire from reaching the frame on a hard turn. My question is this. When I turn my wheel to the right from straight ahead I get about one and a quarter turns before the backside of the flange contacts the bolt stop. When turning to the left, I get one and three quarter turns before it contacts the bolt stop. Does anyone know the reason for this difference?

[wilfreeman]

Maybe the steering gear or bellcrank weren't aligned right when the steering system was rebuilt? The steering gear is supposed to be perfectly centered before installing the pitman arm and the bellcrank at 90deg from the crossmember before installing the tie rods/ends. Is there slop in the system?
_________________
Matt
1953 M38a1
1964 USMC M38a1
'51 USMC M100 trailer, '54 M100 trailer, '90 M101a1 trailer
Http://wilfreeman.wordpress.com (M38a1 build blog)
http://m38a1usmc.wordpress.com (USMC M38a1 rebuild blog)

[32sbct]

Everything is new. Steering box rebuilt, drag link rebuilt, new pitman arm, bell crank rebuilt, new wheel bearing, new tie rods. No slop anywhere. I followed the instructions below posted by Wes in another post. I made one mistake. I kept the drag link on the bellcrank and lined up the other end of the drag link socket with the pitman arm. I don't think it will make a difference but I'll try it the other way tomorrow to see if I get a different result. This has been pretty frustrating.

"Toe is set staring with the bellcrank which must have it's tie rod connecting arm at 90 degrees to the centerline of the front axle assembly. (Best to disconnect the bell crank from the draglink for this)

Then check each front wheel for straight ahead using a long straight edge across the sides of both the front and rear tires. Adjust the left tie rod to get the left tire straight ahead and then the right tie rod to get the right tire straight ahead. Verify both front tires are dead nuts on straight ahead and the bellcrank tie rod arm is 90 degrees to the axle center line. Now adjust or set the toe in by shortening each tie rod by 1/2 turn.

Now turn the steering wheel full to one side. Then full to the other side while counting the turns. Then bring the wheel to the center by turning it exactly half the full number of turns. The draglink socket should now align with the bellcrank arm ball. If not your pitman arm is off center and will need to be adjusted."

[frankthecrank58]

i am by no means an expert but i've been reading my manuals like i have a pending exam or something. anyways i have a suggestion . in regards to the actual steering gear, has it been adjusted to be centered as stated in para 239 on pg 274 in tm 9-8012?
_________________
Frank 1952 M38 Cdn CAR 52-31812,1952 M38 Cdn F100005, 1967 Jeepster, 1999 XJ, 1999 TJ " rubiCLONE"

[wesk]

Hello 32sbct,

The quote you just posted does not match the advice I posted on the other thread.

This what I posted to your question yesterday:

[32sbct]

Sorry Wes, I quoted the advice you gave on an earlier post I found in the archives. Based on your post from a day ago I did I did go back and rechecked quite a few items including rechecking the front wheel bearing adjustment. I was also able to set the toe in to 3/16 of an inch based on using the rim as the place to take the measurements, not the tire.

Also, I think you are definitely on to something related to the stop screws not being correct. When my right tire is at full turn against the stop screw, the tire is about 1 1/2 inches from the spring at its closest point. On the left hand side it is about 3/4 inch away.

Both of the screws seem to be set to the same length. As you can see from the picture these screws have been welded in place.

I do not know how to measure the steering angle but if you give me the instructions I'll do it tomorrow.

[wesk]

Get a couple of plumb bobs and some chalk and a large plastic map compass.

Measure the center of the front and rear of the jeep. Set a plumb bob at the front and rear set points and mark the floor of the garage thru the two marks with chalk or chalk line so you have the jeep sitting on top of it's centerline and the front of the line extends forward past the jeep several feet.

Now turn the front wheels full to one side say the left . On the side that has contacted the stop screw put your straight edge across the sidewall of the tire and slowly slide it down to the floor and mark the floor with chalk along the edge of the straight edge so the line intersects the jeep's center line.

Now turn the front wheels full to the other side and repeat the same with the straight edge.

You'll now have a center line on the floor with the left wheel angle line intersecting it underneath the jeep and the right wheel angle line intersecting it underneath the jeep.

Now move the jeep far enough away that it doesn't have any effect on the compass' magnet.

Now place you map compass on the floor aligned with the jeep center line facing the same way the jeep was. Write down the heading in degrees you see on the compass. Now take the same readings on the compass with it aligned on each of the angled lines facing roughly the same direction the jeep was. The difference between the heading degrees each side of the center line are your steering angles.

Or you can drive the jeep to your front end alignment shop and it would take them about 10 minutes to set you up on the rack and read the steering angles.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[32sbct]

Wes thanks for the comprehensive directions. Makes sense. My jeep is a rolling chassis right now so the local shop is not an option. I'll collect the other items today and find out those steering angles. I'll let you know what I find.

[32sbct]

Wes, here is what I found. If you take a look at the picture below, the top of the picture is in the direction of the front of the jeep. The angle on the left is when the left tire was against the steering stop. The right angle was for the right tire. As you can see they intersect the center line at different locations.

The measurement was made using a military protractor because I could not find my compass. The center line was on the 0 to 180 degree line with zero at the bottom. The left steering angle measured 153 degrees. The right steering angle is 203 degrees.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and suggestions on this. I appreciate your input.

[32sbct]

One last calculation. The actual angle on the left by subtracting the 153 from 180 is 27 degrees. On the right subtracting 203 from 180 is 23 degrees. I think those are the numbers you are looking for.

[wesk]

This is where a civilian SM1002 manual is helpful.

The correct steering angles depend on which type steering knuckle joint you have.


Bendix joints are 23 Deg's
Rzeppa joints are 29 deg's
Spicer joints are 27 1/2 deg

To adjust you must cut the weld on the adjustment screw and make the adjustment then re-weld the screw.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[32sbct]

Thanks Wes, I' can't tell you the number of ties I re-centered the steering box, the pitman arm, bell crank etc. The weird part is that I wonder how long the jeep has had this issue. I'm assuming these were welded at the factory? I wonder if this jeep spent its whole life this way? I now have a path forward. Thanks for sticking with this one till it was sorted out. Much appreciated.

[wesk]

The stops were welded at the factory to prevent their coming loose. The service manual actually states that if adjustment is needed in the field to cut the weld, adjust and re-weld.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[maeserik]

I put a washer after one of the bolts on the knuckle ( sealerretainer), so the head of this bolt touches the welded stop bolt.
No one could see this.....

Erik
_________________
1942 GPW 71336 my son's jeep restored now
1951 M38 MC11891
1953 VW beetle (genuine german Käfer )
1957 fantastic wife

http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/showgallery.php?cat=1865

and this webside

[32sbct]

Erik, good suggestion. I originally thought that the right side was the issue but it actually turns out that the left (drivers) side that was off. I need to add about 3/16th to correct the steering angle from 27 degrees to the correct 23 degrees.