Star stencil

[Bretto]

I plan on making star stencils at some point for the M38 but had an easy question.
How is the star measured. From one point to the opposite like on a 5 lug wheel or is it the size of a circle that the star would fit into. I'd guess the 1st.
Here is a pic. What distance (between dots) is measured
A or B. Circle is invisible of course. And is it a 15" or 20" for the hood? Seems I have been reading both #'s

_________________
Brett
'51 M38
PHOTO DIARY OF MY BUILD

[wesk]

Army Regulation AR 746-2300-1 (a 1955 Doc) has all the legalize long winded definitions of everything. The Army technical bulletin TB 746-93-1 (latest edition 1964) gives the the "How to apply the info from the reg to the truck" information. These are the two documents that are most applicable to the 50's and 60's vehicle marking. The AR 746-2300-1 is very rare and hard to find but it also is not really needed. TB 746-93-1 is readily available.
http://armyradio.com/arsc/customer/pages.php?pageurl=/publish/Technical_Bulletin_746-93-1/Technical_Bulletin.htm

The WWII and early M series followed the old AR 850-5 up to about 1952.
It is readily available as well.
http://jeepdraw.com/images/AR-850-5.pdf

Before doing any markings one should review these and keep a copy close by.

The star is measure by diamter. A circle thru all the points. The AR850-5 placed the jeep hood star at 15" with the back edge of the circle 1 1/2" from dash so the star is visible with the windshield up or down. TB 746-93-1 specifies 20", point forward and must be visible with windshield up or down.

Here's a fairly simple guide to drawing the 5 point star:
http://www.easy-drawings-and-sketches.com/draw-a-star.html
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[Bretto]

I am going to play the pure ignorance card when it comes to unit markings. I know nothing where to start or the history of my rig with what would be acceptable without looking like a baffoon. Only info I was given, is that it came back from service Germany.
For the hood # I am having to do the 208XXXXX (serial #) but for the bumper unit markings.....?????
And regarding the star, I suppose it depends on the date if it ever got star markings if it was 15" or 20" right? Comes down to choice as I see it.

I appreciate your patience in this matter.
_________________
Brett
'51 M38
PHOTO DIARY OF MY BUILD

[wesk]

Read the two references I posted links to and you will then understand the unit marking system. The easiest place to get some Ideas on unit markings used on jeeps in Europe are the MP unit web sites. I doubt a 15" star was ever placed on a M38 by the Army. Only a handful of M38's made it to Korea before the end of the war and the beginning of the Armistice. Stars were the choice of the theater commander and were meant to be used where we did not have air superiority.

Some easy web sites:
http://www.berlin-brigade.de/pmo/mp-e.html



Europe 1950's



An MB in Europe 1951


Europe 1953


Europe 1953


M38A1 in the 60's Germany. Note 20" star.
_____________________________________________________


Korea Aug 50 note incorrect star placement and it is much larger than 15".


Korea 1950


Sep 1950 Korea MB with 20" star
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[Beast]

As for unit markings here is how they are made up:

Unit Markings:

These are the number/letter markings found on the front and rear bumpers of the trucks. The US Marine Corps did not use these markings. These markings were required to be in the largest practical size but not over 4 inches in height. Any symbols used outside the normal letters and numbers were to be as close to the same size as the lettering. Initially these were to be of paint that could be removed with gasoline or removable vinyl letters.

Reading such markings from left to right on a front bumper would tell us a lot about the vehicles assignment, to include:

1. The Major Command it is assigned to
2. The Intermediate Command it is assigned to
3. The Unit or Activity it is assigned to
4. The vehicle number for convoy purposes, aka: Order of March

Looking at the front bumper would look like this:

(#1 #2) star (#3 #4)
_________________
Dave
53' M38a1, 53' M37, 67' M715, 67' M725, 67' M35a2
http://www.davidallenracing.com/motorpool.htm
Delta Team Decals http://www.deltateamdecals.com/

[BBDE]

That picture of the MB was taken in Berlin in 1949, Airlift period.
Those Jeeps where used for patroling the transit ways from and to Berlin and Helmstedt between the checkpoints ALPHA and BRAVO.
In the post war era, most (not all) Vehicles went to the paintshops, lost the stars and got the more visible white Bumpers painted. Those vehicles got some darker glossy olive paint too.
In the 1950´s some M38´s where with Stars and some without.
Vehicles that where used in transportation companys and for parade use hadn´t Stars applied on.
The M38 in the first Picture from Wes was taken 1951 and shows one of the parade Jeeps.
Crome grille, white seats,handle bar for the general behind the seats.
The generals sign is covered.
Note the tires too. One of the Berlin command specials.
The picture from the M38A1 was taken in october 1961 during the Tank confrontation at Checkpoint Charlie.

Berlin Brigade. de is the website of a friend of mine.
There are a lot of nice pictures ( M38 and A1) and some information.

Stars on a M38 hood used in Berlin : 15´
Star on the Hood of a M38A1 used in Berlin 1960: 20`



Frank

[Bretto]

I have read and sort of understand now. Without knowing any prev history, so far have just conjured up this.
#1 - #2 #3 - #4
(numeral)A - ???? STAR HQ-(numeral)

Means nothing. I am not sure what I can get away with or could put in the #2 position. This is nothing more than for cosmetics.
_________________
Brett
'51 M38
PHOTO DIARY OF MY BUILD

[PaulB]

Here is a shot of my bumper number stencils on my early 1951 M38. Very few photos of M38s with the 14th Armored Cav in Germany had stars of any kind. None had hood stars or bumper stars as far as I can tell. If they had any they were the small ones on the rear.

Here is the breakdown of my numbers...

7A - 7th Army
14 (triangle) C - 14th Armored Cavalry
bumper star (no star, no 14th Cav M38s had them)
A - (Alpha Company, part of 1st Battalion)
26 - vehicle 26



And a screen capture from a short clip on 14th A/C M38s on patrol in the Fulda Gap, 1954.

[/img]
_________________
Paul
April 1951 M38

http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=PaulB&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[Bretto]

Paul is that your actual M38 in that older shot or is that one you just used the #'s from?
I know I will just have to come with something on my own, following the marking guidlines of course.
Thanks all.
_________________
Brett
'51 M38
PHOTO DIARY OF MY BUILD

[BBDE]

Sometimes the stars where painted left and right on the M38 windshieldframe in 6´ and not on the front bumper.

Frank

[wesk]

Actually the old period photo is a different set of numbers. I company 25 vehicle in the line of march.

What is an important lesson here is that local commanders had a lot of leeway in how they marked their vehicles. Many cases letters authorizing deviations from the regs were used by various units and their numbering systems would appear not to conform even though they were legit arrangements. Individual commands often supplemented the Army Regs with approved by HQ Army supplements which would change marking procedures from the manual in that commands vehicles. Often when neighboring units had very similar markings per the reg they would arrive at a memorandum of agreement to mark one unit's vehicle differently enough to avoid confusion.
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

[PaulB]

Bretto, yes Wes is correct. I only used the jeep in the video as an example for my stencils. Unfortunately there were no bumper number present when I did the restoration. My jeep is stenciled as a 1st Battalion jeep, A Company, the jeep in the video still is a 3rd Battalion jeep, I Company.

Look through all the original photos (if you haven't already) and you'll get some good ideas.
_________________
Paul
April 1951 M38

http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=PaulB&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php