Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:27 pm Post subject: Water Vapor Cloud On Newly Rebuilt Engine
Today, I took my longest drive in my newly rebuilt/restored M38A1. Drove about 10 miles into Mariposa, Ca. and got lots of compliments and thumbs up. Everything good until I drove back in the driveway and saw white smoke pouring out of the tailpipe.
So with about 90 minutes on the engine, it appears I have blown a head gasket or worse. Checked the oil and no water there. Before I tear it down, is there a test I should do other than a compression test to determine where the water is getting in?
This really sucks because it was running so good right up to getting in the drive. Could be worse though. I was planning a longer drive and would have come home on the hook if I dared get any further away. BTW, there was water dripping/pooling in the pipe along with the vapor so the leak may be substantial. The plume looked like one of those air show planes that exhaust some fluid thru their engine. Lots of anti freeze still in the radiator.
Mike _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
Actually a leak down test of each cylinder and a radiator coolant pressure test/leak down test are the two tests you need to do. The easiest test is to get her warmed up and leave the radiator cap off. Stare in at the top of the coolant and if you start seeing a lot of bubbles then you have a head gasket blown. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 971 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject:
F heads are notorious for blowing the gasket between 2 & 3 cylinder. Mine did the same with about 6 miles on it. I changed from the one steel sided gasket to all fiber. Re-torqued the head as soon as I got it up to operating temperature the first time. I now have 800 miles on it with no problems. Don't put it away and forget about it either. You'll have a stuck motor from all the water. John
Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:56 am Post subject:
Wes...It started running rough just as this occurred and I shut her down. Is it safe to run the engine with that kind of symptom? And when doing a leak down test, how long should the cylinder hold the compression?
Lastly, if I add compressor air to each cylinder and look in the radiator will it show bubbles as if it were running? I have an adapter for that.
I plan to do these tests today if armed with enough info and then tear it down. When I put the head gasket on, I added a thin coat of copper based sealant. Retorqued the head after warm up. I am thinking Oilleakers idea of an all fiber gasket is a good idea at this point. I don't know what else I could have done to prevent this. Assuming nothing cracked inside that is. _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
White coolant smoke and rough running means don't run it again till it's fixed. The leak down test is not a timed test. You apply air around 80 PSI to the cylinder and look for evidence of air leakage pass valves, rings, and gaskets by listening to the carb intake, the exhaust pipe and the oil filler cap and watching for bubbles in the coolant in the radiator. Just google leak down test and you'll find dozens of disortations on the test procedure. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:11 pm Post subject:
Yes. I mentioned that in my last post. I will be starting this today and update the post with my findings for those interested. Thanks to those who responded.
Mike _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:26 pm Post subject:
The compression check resulted in 115-120 LBS on each cylinder. But upon removal of the plugs, the 2&3 plugs were quite wet. With anti-freeze. Knew the head was coming off at this point and proceeded to do that.
The gasket, a metal core with fibre type, came off with the head. I could see material on the block except between 2&3 near the plugs. Looking at the head gasket, I saw the tell tale sign of blow by between the cylinders. When I scraped the gasket off the head, the same indication of blow by was on the other side. The location of this is between the outer head bolt and water jacket hole and near the spark plugs. It appears to be the most narrow spot on the gasket between two cylinders.
Since I used a gasket coating, a fibre gasket, torqued the head after running and the head had been milled and the block checked for distortion, what else can I do to prevent this from happening again? Or in other words, what did I do wrong? And why did my compression show the same for 2&3 when there was obviously a leak? _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
Joined: May 14, 2009 Posts: 971 Location: South Dakota
Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:00 pm Post subject:
That is where my engine blew it's first gasket. I have a small hairline crack running from the water jacket hole headed towards the outside headbolt hole. Both my head and block were surfaced. I also had the machine ship put a pin in the end of the crack heading to the bolt hole. Besides what has been mentioned, I also dremeled the crack slightly and filled it with JB weld. I then carefully block sanded it flat with the surface. The center headbolt, and the outboard bolt in that area are what gets retorqued first on warm up. The machine shop recommended copper coat on the one steel sided gasket, which I did. It failed so bad that I didn't have to clean that side of the gasket when I removed the head. Not so on the fiber side. It was stuck on everywhere. The all fiber gasket I put on was not copper coated. Still going strong. You might want to take a flat edge and see if a feeler gauge will easily slip under it in that area. Maybe the block needs surfacing. I hope it fixes for you! John
Joined: Aug 11, 2012 Posts: 76 Location: Osoyoos.British Columbia, Canada
Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:39 am Post subject:
compression results being the same on all four cylinders may be due to the engine being cold and everything contracted so it's tight. _________________ Frank 1952 M38 Cdn CAR 52-31812,1952 M38 Cdn F100005, 1967 Jeepster, 1999 XJ, 1999 TJ " rubiCLONE"
As I suggested earlier a leakdown test would have revealed the issue very quickly.
Each head gasket manufacturer published installation directions with their head gaskets. Some require adhesive on both sides, some on one side and some on none. Some require a retorque and some do not.
The key to a successful head gasket installation is following the correct set of instructions. The instructions in the Willys pubs is only for the stock Willys supplied head gasket. Aftermarket gaskets must be installed using their installation instructions and not Willys instructions.
In your failure it may not have been the gasket's fault at all. If that head bolt was in a water jacket and you failed to completely seal the head bolt's threads then it may have leaked a bit and lifted the gasket enough to facilitate the cylinder pressure blowing it. I have at one time or another installed all the gasket types and I have never had one blow but in each case I made sure I used the correct procedure for that gasket manufacturer. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Joined: Apr 08, 2009 Posts: 249 Location: Mariposa, Ca.
Posted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:11 am Post subject:
I have not yet checked for a cracked head or block in that location but I did use an ample amount of thread sealer. Sealed the gasket on both sides and followed the recommendation of the shop owner who did the machine work, and put copper sealant on both sides of the gasket.
I would like to know what you use for thread sealant just in case I used something that is not as good as what you use. And do you have a recommendation for the type of head gasket?
If you have never had a failure then I want to do what you have done and see if I can go 1 for 2 in this game. Actually I have installed many over the years on flatheads and overheads but never on one of these engines. I never had a failure before now which really has me wondering how to prevent further problems and what I did wrong here.
Mike _________________ Mike Wenrich
1961 USMC M38A1, 1965 M416B1 Trailer, 1956 Willys Wagon (Modified)
Joined: Oct 12, 2011 Posts: 27 Location: Auburn, AL
Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:38 pm Post subject:
I have seen written and been told the same thing from a number of people about using the instructions provided with the head gasket for proper installation. I too had my first metal sided gasket fail on install. There were not even any descriptions provided about the gasket, much less instructions as to what side went up or down or what if any sealants to use. This was a Car Quest gasket. Since that failure, I have ordered and received 4 other gaskets 2 Victor and 2 Fel-Pro from 2 different distributors. NO installation instructions were included with any of them, period. The Victors are fiber on both sides the Fel-Pros are metal on one side and fiber on the other. Further, a Google search for installation instructions turned up no official Victor or Fel-Pro instructions as to how to install either gasket. There were some You Tube vids posted by other users of similar gaskets that were of some instructional value. I used one of the Victor fiber gaskets and applied gasket sealant on advice from a local mechanic with 50 years of experience. No failure. I say this not to refute you Wes, but to emphasize that those instructions you mention don't always exist. That's why those of us in the hobby ranks are dependent on advice from you guys that have done this repeatedly over the years to give us that guidance. Not everything is in the manual or has instructions.
Joined: Oct 10, 2012 Posts: 310 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:04 pm Post subject:
Well put Richard. I searched and searched but was unable to find instructions for the metal-one-side gasket that I just installed. The closest general consensus that I was able to find was not to use any dressings or sealers and torque as per the Willys manual… I really hope it doesn't let go but it seems all that those of us in this position can do is little more than cross our fingers and hope that we didn't go with the wrong set of opinions… _________________ Jordan
As I have said on many gasket questions in the past and I do follow my own advice. You follow the gasket manufacturer's directions. If it says use a sealant in some manner then do it. It if does not say use a sealer then don't use a sealer. If it says follow the OEM instructions then follow the instructions in your engine's manual. If the gasket has no information with it you will , if you look hard enough, find the same statement I posted above: Follow the OEM's instructions. on the Victor and Felpro sites.
I have over 50 years wrenching experience and two basics that have carried me through those years is read and understand directions and follow them. In this industry when a procedure does not specify a specific torque then you use the standard torque chart. If the torque does indicate lubed threads then it is always assumed the threads are dry for that torque. If the procedure directs a gasket be coated somehow with something then that's what you do. If it does not then you don't. By following the dots and understanding any directions or read into the lack of directions the industry standard I have had none of the problems you guys are having here. If any of those gaskets were known to fail without the use of sealants then the manufacturer would have specified the use of that sealant if for no other reason then to stay in business. If the manufacturer does not publish any special installation instructions then there are none. You place the gasket out of the box into it's place and torque it.
Now I am not sure what search engine you guys are using but here's a good place to study and understand this topic:
When installing a composite cylinder-head gasket with Viton element, make sure that the cylinder head and the head gasket are positioned accurately. Inaccurate positioning can cause the Viton element to be overpressed or it can become damaged by sharp component edges. Additional sealing compounds should only be applied if this is specified explicitly by the manufacturer
If you read head installation instructions in the TM 9-1804A (M38). TM 9-8015-1 (M38A1/M170), and SM-1002 L&F134 CJ's, NO SEALANT IS USED! _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
