I found the opening declarations to be in my opinion inaccurate to say the least.
How can a Willys MB have ALL matching numbers? A Ford GPW did leave Ford with matching engine/frame/tub serial numbers. The M38 left willys with only a screw on tub serial number and a NON-matching engine serial number.
So unless I missed something the entire intro line is BS.
How can anyone prove any engine is original to their Willys jeep? This guy says he can, because he knows!
So I email the seller and ask these questions. Here is how this guy communicates with a prospective buyer questioning the accuracy of his AD for a unit he expects to get $14,000 for.
Does this guy have me pegged correctly?
Am I the anal attentive he says I am for asking these pointed questions?
Here's the claims followed by our email discussions.
1943 Willys MB Jeep Matching #ís Like Ford GPW M38 Item number: 4637835764
Here is a very nice WWII 1943 Willys MB Jeep with a DOD of 3-12-43. Both the original glove box data plate and frame tag numbers match. This jeep has it's original tub, frame, engine, transmission and t-case. It is ready for reenactments, parades or display. This jeep looks, drives, shifts, functions, handles and stops superbly. The Jeep has had a good combat / parade frame off restoration done about 10 years ago. The original engine functions without any problems and new gaskets have been installed. The original T-84 and T-case have been rebuilt and function perfectly. The breaks have been gone through and work great. It has new a Beachwood canvas top and 5 NDT tires. It is running on a 12v system. The lights work and the original taillights have been removed and replaced with modern ones for safety. The originals will be included in the auction. This jeep has an invasion star on the hood and two smaller stars on the rear side panels. Also, the rims have been painted the same color as the rest of the jeep. Before the restoration, this jeep came from a farm here in CA so it started with almost no rust. What was there has been fixed and it is ready to go. The jeep has a clean and clear California title. This is truly a fun dependable jeep that will make someone very happy. If youíre looking for a WWII jeep that will be trouble free and 96% correct than this one is for you. You are more than welcome to come drive this jeep before the auction ends. Please, come and kick the tires because we know if you do, you will bid on it!!!
RE: Question for item #4637835764 - 1943 Willys MB Jeep Matching #?s Like Ford GPW M38
5/9/2006 5:36 PM
The serial number on the boss is right for the DOD. Buy the all american wonder jeep book series. It will go into that kind of stuff.
From: "eBay Member: quaytoc" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Question for item #4637835764 - 1943 Willys MB Jeep Matching #?s Like Ford GPW M38
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:11:21 -0700
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Question from quaytoc
quaytoc( 198 )
Positive Feedback: 99.5%
Member Since: Oct-15-99
Location: WI, United States
Registered On: www.ebay.com
Item: 1943 Willys MB Jeep Matching #?s Like Ford GPW M38 (4637835764)
This message was sent while the listing was active.
quaytoc is a potential buyer.
Would you take a moment to explain to me how you were able to determine the engine is in fact original to your MB?
From: Wes K <email@example.com>
To: matt XXXXXXXXX <mattXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX>
Subject: Re: Question for item #4637835764 - 1943 Willys MB Jeep Matching #?s Like Ford GPW M38
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 23:16:54 -0500
I have a 45 MB and a 51 M38. I have all volumes of the AAW. You can ascertain that the engine serial is close to what should be in the jeep but it is absolutely impossible to be 100 % sure that engine came in that jeep from Willys. This is why I questioned your claim of an original to that jeep engine.
It isa generally accepted in the jeep community that if the engine was produced two-three weeks prior to the DOD of your jeep it was the one the jeep came with or is 110% correct for that jeep. I also bought the jeep from the son of the guy who bought it from the military. THAT IS HOW I KNOW.
Subject: 43 MB
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:50:43 -0500 (CDT)
>I have been a member of that jeep family you spoke of since 1971. I have owned a 42 GPW, 50 CJ3A, 52 M38A1 and 60 CJ3B over those years. I currently own a 45 MB, 51 M38, 60 CJ5 and a 52 parts M38. I own two Willys M jeeps web sites and forums.
>It is possible that an engine produced 2 to 3 weeks before the MB's DOD could have been original to the jeep. Since first in first out was never a rule at Willys it is also possible that an engine produced 4 months before your MB's DOD could have been original to your jeep. There is no gospel 110% correct theory floating around in the jeep restoration community. The fact that you have the ability to speak with all the owners since it was surplused out means nothing. The Army could have replaced that engine at anytime during the jeeps 10 to 15 year career. All the printed data does is provide a means to interpolate what serial number engine could have been in a certain serial jeep. There are no records of which MB go which engine anywhere.
>I opened this topic with you because I feel a "All matching numbers" statement for a Willys jeep built in any year from 1941 through 1968 is just an impossibility. Only the Ford GPW had three matching numbers. If you wish to say your frame and body tags match that is a true statement. Can you ascertain that those two tags have always been on that frame and that tub since 1943? No you nor anyone else cannot. The jeep could have had two or three tub changes while it was in the Army.
>There are many unknowing folks out there with money to spend. I feel we can do a better job of representing our product fairly to the public. Avoiding statements or claims of matching numbers and other points of authenticity which are clearly unsupportable is not in the best interest of our hobby and it's reputation. An unknowing and trusting buyer will suffer immeasurable personal injury when they present their new jeep and represent it as they were told and find that it is not what he thought it was.
>At any rate I am probably just an irritation to you by now and you'll most likely just delete this. That's your choice. However I am a staunch believer in "What goes around comes around".
I want to first start by asking you why you are busting my balls over this??? Donít you have anything better to do? Do you ask this question to everyone??? I would have got back to you sooner but I have a job that takes up time. I would love to have time like you do to find people to harass on the internet. Do you think you are God because you run a couple jeep forums? Youíre not! I think I have seen you on G503 and itís a good thing that Ron (the owner) is not as arrogant as you because he would not be as well liked as he is.
I am an extremely honest person and seller. It is NOT my intention to deceive or cheat anyone. I give a full money back guarantee on all of my items which I do not have to do. I have over 740 positive feedbacks and one negative which came from a guy in Italy who gave me the wrong shipping address and did not receive his package. He left feedback before I could talk to him as would have refunded his $9.99 + shipping. I own three completely restored WWII army jeeps that I did myself and have restored probably fifteen others. I am currently restoring a 1942 slat grill and am gathering parts so I will be able to restore my GPA. I've been around the block but I am not and expert and I'm sure you aren't either as very few of us are.
I said the numbers match and that the MB has the original engine. I have not found one shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. If the tub was switched by the motor pool in 1946, who cares!!! I am selling a very solid jeep that someone can drive and enjoy. I have NO worries that they will not enjoy or like this jeep. My intentions were to let the buyer know that both data plates were original to the jeep and that I did not have Robert in the Netherlands make up new ones. This is not a national award winning jeep so I think your petty points are irrelevant. If they are expecting an affidavit from the guy on the assembly line stating the jeep has every part it rolled of the line with they are going to have to shell out a little more than the 10K I am wanting.
With all of this said please think twice before you jump up someoneís ass and play MV superhero. I really am a nice guy but it offends me and insults my intelligence when a complete stranger jumps in and tries to tell me how to run my auctions. Believe it or not, I think it is admirable that you are looking out for the more inexperienced jeeper but next time, donít assume that someone is running a scam operation.
Have a great day,
Date: 2006-05-11 22:11:31.0
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Let me set the playing field a little more level here.
1-I run my own business for 10 to 12 hour per day and the time spent here on the internet is hobby time. That's the same as lost family time. I prefer not to waste any time given to us by someone or something bigger then both of us.
2-I do not consider an inquiry into the accuracy of a sellor's declarations harassment.
3-I have not insulted you, called you any names or made any nasty comments about religious position.
4-I really do not care how you run your auctions.
Now with that said, I still understand your auction statement to mean exactly what it says. That is that ALL numbers on your jeep match. I also still believe that on 1/4 ton military jeeps that only happens on Ford built units.
A straight forward and simple reply to the effect that you meant to say only the tub and frame numbers match would have ended this discourse days ago.
Finally I do not enjoy getting a verbal bashing in the evening after a long day at work from a stranger who has very poor manners, poorlanquage skills and is downright insulting.
You have a great day SIR
Sounds about like the same idiot who put the M38 I used to own on ebay about 6 months ago. He claimed the Jeep had sat in a muesum for 20 years thats why it was in such good shape. I actually got the guys phone number and called him and after listening about all the things "he" did to the jeep I finally told him that I had actuall owned the vehicle from about 1974 to 99. There was actually about 1 minute of silence on the phone. It turns out he had stripped off the southwind artic heater the RT-68 radios and was keeping the trailer. Plus the vehicle was way over priced.
(it didnt sell by the way)
Joined: Apr 03, 2005 Posts: 268 Location: Chester County, PA
Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 9:20 am Post subject:
I'd agree with you whole heartedly on this subject manner.
Sadly, this is not just eBay that this kind of behavior belongs to.
My dad and I were down at Aberdeen just yesterday and we were taking a look at all of the vehicles around for sale. One M38 caught my attention. It looked very sweet -- and I mean very sweet. And the guy only wanted $8,500 for it- and claimed it was the original body. We were looking at it and the body was perfect in every aspect. Now I don't know about you, but I've NEVER seen a jeep body that was as flat and perfect as this one besides George Baxter's M38A1 that had an NOS tub on it. Knocked on it a few times and it seemed to have more of a "thud" than normal. Either it had a crapload of bondo on it, was a fiberglass body, or it was reproduction with a different guage steel. Theres always that possibility that he can work miracles with sheet metal, but it just seemed fishy to me.
I alone put $8,500ish into my M38A1 in parts alone. Lets not forget the 1,500 hours of labor. And all of the tool costs. If I ever gave up my A1, I would not even think of selling it for as low as 8,500$. Never. And this guy had a straighter body on it than mine. Didn't get a chance to look under the hood though.
But anyway going back to what you said --
I agree 100%. The Army could have had its way with it for however long it was in the service for. The engine could have easy thrown a rod and the army could have easily replaced it. For example, my A1 has an early frame, late tub, early grill, late / early fenders (both have reinforcing plate AND brace down to the frame). No doubt my jeep was used and abused by the Army and had parts replaced. Dataplates say Dec 54, but god knows if theyre correct or not. It only takes 4 sheet metal screws and shizam a whole new data plate set.
Especially in 60+ years, anything could have happened. _________________ Bob Collins
1954 M38A1 MD79056
I get into the same type arguments vis M201s and rebuilt French jeeps, that are bulit out of french parts. (two very seperate breeds)
In fact in one post on the M201 page I did mention an add I'd seen for Willys advertised with 'matching' numbers.
I monitor epay jeeps sales over here, Its a bit pointless me watching US sales. But it is very intersting, often ignorance is to blame, or sometimes a seller repeating the sales pitch the previous owner gave him.
There are only so many original jeeps to go round and what is happening (this side of the pond anyway) is, people are going to huge extremes to prove THEIR jeep is original.
I know of of builders who have a French rebuilt IMT (or ITM whatever) jeep, now these jeeps NEVER existed before they were assmbled from parts in the 50s using whaterver the French had lying about.
These same builders (fakers) are these days buying up old body tubs etc to get the AMC/Composite body or folded seam or whatever to claim even more originality.
Yeasterday at an airshow I met a jeep enthusiast and a really nice guy that had just bought a pile of CJ2 scrap and actually said, 'My aim is to eventualy put it back to its orginal WWII configuration.'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!***!!?##~~!!!
Which is why I like my M201s and my M38, you can't fake these.
All I can say about e-bay is, before you buy, you better do your own research. There are people selling items that have no idea what they are doing. I use to try to correct them, but generally got the same response as Wes. Case-in-pount: I was recently looking for a 63rd Division patch on e-bay. Found a listing for one, but the photo showed a 10th Division patch without the "Mountain" tab. I e-mailed the guy to ask if he actually had a 63rd patch and had just posted the wrong photo. His reply was that he was an expert and the patch was correct. I sent him a photo of an actual 63rd Division patch with reference info concerning both divisions, and got a second reply that I was wrong and he was right. You can't correct idiots who are only in it for the money. Buyer beware!! _________________ Chuck W.
Dixie Division MVC #002
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