Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: m38a1 hat channel
I have a 52 m38a1, bought with no floors. I am finished welding the floors in, and was wondering if anyone had any specific pictures and/or measurements for the location of the hat channel.
thanks!
If you didn't replace the tunnel structure then you have a easy p[lace to start.
With the tunnel un-disturbed the other parts will only fit well in one place. I would suggest you test fit the tub to the chassis with the hat channels only tacked to determine if you have them close enough.
Since each tub and frame have taken different sets over the years the safest bet is to bolt the tub to your chassis starting at the rear and work your way forward. When you get to the hat channel area start placing each channel in position to line up with it's related frame mount point. Then tac them once you have managed to organize them where they catch all mount holes in the frame and are reasonably close enough to each other to start welding them together. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
what exactly do you mean by 'tunnel structure'? the center portion covering tranny and t-case? if so, I didn't have to replace that, but my biggest section of channel will fit in there and still have some movement left and right. all I have to do is be off by a few degrees and the frame mount wont line up. I appreciate the help!
also, as a side note/question. my data plates say under depot maintenance "navy dept." would that mean it was used by the navy or could it have some other history? I found a stamped tag of metal with the numbers "429930" which I assumed to be the hood numbers for a navy jeep 94-29930. any thoughts on this? data plates also give serial no. as MD27551 which was also found on the plate behind passenger seat.
Your M38A1 falls within an interesting group of M38A1 serial numbers. SN# 27544 above yours and SN# 27564 below yours are also Navy A1's.
Of note--within a group of 25 reported serial numbers, there are 15 USMC A1's above 27544 and below 27564 starts a small grouping of 2 USAF A1's. All of the USMC, Navy and USAF A1's group on top of each other. The grouping of service branches is repeated through out the database until the end of production. Using the assumption the serial number spread between like branches are continuous, you can look at the spread between end of the USMC block of A1's and start of the Navy and USAF Al's, and tell (assume really, depending on where you cut one branch off and start another, in this case that spread was very small) there were only 250 or so Navy and like number of USAF M38A1's delivered in 1952 which makes your Navy M38A1 very uncommon. Its not until early 1953 when another small group shows up of Navy and USAF M38A1 having been ordered / requested by these branches.
I have been able to inspect many USMC A1s within this serial number range (all were on a surplus dealer yard) and notice many had US Army numbers under the flaking paint. Also, the contract number is also the same as the Army A1's. It appears that when the Marine Corps ordered M38A1's, a "block" of these M38A1's were assigned to the Marine Corps. It now appears that out of this huge "block" of M38A1's the Navy and Air Force also got some. I would be very interested in your contract number to further confirm this theory.
As you can see, as owners send in their serial number data, it is easy to start seeing a pattern. While we do not know the exact history, with the data on file, we can tell you have an interesting M38A1 that falls within a time period when all Branches of the service were starting to receive the new and improved M38A1. _________________ Harold W.
MVPA #6833
1945 GPW
1950 CJV-35/U
1951 M38 1952 M38
1962 USMC Contract M38A1
1953 Strick M100 1967 Johnson M416
1968 CJ5 4-Speed 1969 CJ5 V6
Are you working off a copy of Scott's M38A1 data base? _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Check out Midwest Military's picture files of projects. John has some great photo's of replacement hat channels installed on a jeep tub undergoing restoration. It is very self explanatory.
Having seen some NOS Willys or Kaiser replacement hat channels from the 1960's I can tell you his parts are better than original factory replacement parts.
Its my collective database which does have some of Scott's SN#. I'm sure he has added more since he sent it to me some years back. The rest come from the early MVPA D-3, 4 and 5 Directories, Serials Numbers sent to me by owners and personal observations over a 25 plus year span. Most of the time, there is not much to tell since most SN# fall within an area of the database that's all the same, however, if someone is missing a DOD or wants to know a serial number range for an engine or hood number, it can narrow down a starting point. Sometimes, its just good to know your jeep is what its suppose to be.
Its when you get into the small groupings of the USMC, Navy and USAF models you see just how uncommon these are. Not so much the USMC models as through the years, many have shown up, however, the Navy and USAF models are truly few and far between.
More for your information, I keep up with Contract numbers, MC and RMC engine numbers, hood numbers along with CJV-35, CJ2A, 3A, 3B and Early CJ5 serial number data. I also have good data on the different models of the M100 and M416 trailers. Any question on serial numbers, feel free to ask, send or refer them to me and I will see what I have. _________________ Harold W.
MVPA #6833
1945 GPW
1950 CJV-35/U
1951 M38 1952 M38
1962 USMC Contract M38A1
1953 Strick M100 1967 Johnson M416
1968 CJ5 4-Speed 1969 CJ5 V6
thanks for the help, guys. so my jeep is pretty rare? any idea how much it would be worth? also, does anyone have any good information about the paint color/markings for it?
I avoid using the term Rare since it is subjective. When you look at the amount of serial numbers that have been reported / found over the 25 year period, you can start using the database as a sample of what models are out there. When many hundreds of regular (Army) M38A1's are in the database and only a small number of--in your case--Navy M38A1's, it start to become clear that a true Navy M38A1 are, as I said, few and far between.
Value--about the same as any other M38A1, but would be worth more if you found someone looking for a true Navy M38A1. Most will just paint up a M38A1 as a Navy jeep.
In service use--your M38A1 could be a See-Bee M38A1, which the few Navy M38A1's I have see were. You will have to do some detective work by lightly sanding through the civilian paint and see if you can uncover any markings.
If it was a See-Bee M38A1, it would be in USMC Green paint with black hood numbers.
It is also important to note that if your Contract Number is ------ORD 630, It was most likely delivered as an "Army Model" and would have a OD green base color and the Navy and/or the Marine Corps would have repainted it to suite them. Which means, everything under the hood would most likely been OD and black as well as everything inside the frame rails. If they did paint under the hood, well, everything would have been painted--engine, air filter, carburetor,hoses ect. To know what you have, you will need to take the time to uncover the clues as to how it was used in service. Look for parts that you feel may be original to your M38A1 and sand through the paint and see what the color layers are.
If its a Navy M38A1 you want--it would be well worth your time and efforts. If you do under take the job--keep us in the loop. As of now, we only have a "general feel" of what was going on during this time. Hard facts can be recorded in the database with your serial number which would make your M38A1 serial number, what I call, a "corner stone" for all the other M38A1's around it. [/i][/u] _________________ Harold W.
MVPA #6833
1945 GPW
1950 CJV-35/U
1951 M38 1952 M38
1962 USMC Contract M38A1
1953 Strick M100 1967 Johnson M416
1968 CJ5 4-Speed 1969 CJ5 V6
There is some evidence that Willys started painting Navy and USAF jeeps in their colors at the factory in 1952 during the -630 contract period. Weather 2430 OD was still thinned and used as a primer for them as it was on the Army units is unclear. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
okay thanks for the input guys. I can give some insight into the paint questions. my jeep has 3 layers of paint before someone turned it into their hunting jeep...but I will get to that in a bit. it has a red primer, then an olive green (guessing army color?) then forest green. as far as markings go, the only thing I found when sanding was an orange circle, maybe 8" in diameter with some blue lettering that could not be made out. if anyone has any clue about that it would be cool. as far as history for the jeep, I know very little. I bought it for $1,200 from some Chinese guy in Atlanta. it was advertised as a good running and driving jeep that looked okay from the blurry pics he posted. I drove the 150 mile trip in my parents mini van to pick it up, only to find a jeep that would not turn left, had absolutely no brakes (even lines were cut out) and it has Chinese symbols all over it. when I asked what the $&% all of that was, he told me, "its my gangster car." he had the selling price at $1,800 and after I pointed out all of its obvious flaws, we settled on the $1,200 which was probably way too much for the shape it was in. the no left turn was due to a broken axle shaft, so more of a PITA than I was hoping for. my plan for the jeep is to return it to its Navy markings, and drive the heck out of it. my grandfather and two great uncles fought in WWII in the navy, so I figured I would put their personnel numbers on the back plate of the jeep. I plan on painting it a blue-grey color, haven't picked the shade yet, but I would describe it as navy blue mixed with black smoke, if that makes any sense. it was converted to 12V which I will keep as it is, and I plan on buying an overdrive unit for it. I know to some this may seem like a travesty, but it could always be worse...it was once a "gangster car"
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