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M38 cdn ou us ??

 
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north-shore
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Joined: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Tracadie-sheila Canada

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: M38 cdn ou us ?? Reply with quote

Hi new on this forum i am a french canadian and my hobby is collecting ww2 stuff
I just buy a M38 and on the frame the serial number is starting 52-????? and i don't have any data plate so i need info?

would like to know how you see the different from M38 cdn and us one?
any one have a data plate for sale?
and 52-???? is it for the year?

thx
Eric
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OKCM38CDN
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric,

What you have, with it being a M-38 is a M-38CDN (Canadian). There is a long story on how these came to be... another time...

The 52-3XXXX in your frame is the Canadian Army Registry (CAR) number... this was stamped into the frame by the military upon receipt of the jeep from the manufacturer... Please post your number as we may be able to help with actual serial number and Date of Delivery(DOD)...

There is one source of data plates for your jeep, that I know of, Brian Asbury, PO Box 26, Milton, Ontario, Canada L9T 2Y3 Tel: (519)853-1738 is supposed to have had the proper data plates made for the M-38CDN... these will be reproduction plates, but originals are hard to find... he maybe able to help you get them stamped...

My M-38CDN is CAR 52-31313, DOD 7/52...

The CAR number is made up of the following per my understanding:

52 = Year
3 = 1/4 ton truck
XXXX = vehicle number

Also all the parts from an US M-38 will fit yours... the only difference is the Data plates they will have M-38CDN and the Serial number plate will say Ford on it instead of Willy's...

There are other minor things, but only experienced folks will know what to look for...

Hope this helps...
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north-shore
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allo Very Happy
Thanks for the info for the Serial number i will get it this weeken i am out of town i have oder question Wink

1- the panel gage is it the same as a M-37?
2- side pane for the tub is it hard to fin?
3- is the WIRING HARNESS is the same of a M-35 ?
4- whit year of mortor will be the best for my jeep to be more a the original ?
5- seat is it the same a a M-38a1?

thx

Eric
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wesk
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Posts: 15628
Location: Wisconsin

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1- the panel gage is it the same as a M-37?


Yes and no, The M38 originally came with a 120 PSI gage and sender. The Army later switched to 60 PSI like the M38A1 and the rest of the M series trucks.

Quote:
2- side pane for the tub is it hard to fin?


No. http://www.4wd.com/index.htm http://www.jeepanelsplus.com/

Quote:
3- is the WIRING HARNESS is the same of a M-35 ?


Yes, the construction of the harness uses the same Douglas components with metal shells from 1950 thru about 1960. A replacement harness is available from: http://www.vintagewiringofmaine.com/


Quote:
4- whit year of mortor will be the best for my jeep to be more a the original ?


That's easy. 1952 because the M38CDN was only built by Ford of Canada in 1952.

Quote:
5- seat is it the same a a M-38a1?


The rear seat yes the other two seats no.

Here's a collection of notes from various posts the last few years on the M38CDN story:

Quote:
Subject: Re: M38 Data Base
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:16:37 -0700
From: Jacques Dorion <jacdor@telusplanet.net>
To: Wes Knettle <wsknettl@centurytel.net>
References:
1




Hi Wes
Here is the story and it is a simple one.
1) The M38 CDN was not designed, created or built by Ford Canada, it
is not a GPW in comparaison to a MB. It is a Willys Overland Jeep
assembled, put together by Ford Canada.
The story is that at the time the canadian goverment wanted jeeps
now and since Willys could barely keep up with the demand at the time
Willys or the Canadian Goverment asked Ford to do it for them. So all
the parts (Willys, Autolite, kelsey (wheels) etc )were sent up to Canada
to be assembled here (Ford, Windsor, Ontario)
That lasted for 10 months, Feb 1952 to Nov 1952 and 2135 of them were
assembled here. Once they were out the doors there was no differences in
between US and CDN M38 excepted for the data plates.
As far as I know there no differences between serial # F-100001 and
F-102135. They are all the same and also they are the late
US serial # model. References for this will be found in ORD 9 SNL G-740
My jeep has an early CDN serial # and incorpores the latest improvement
made to the US M38 at the time (1952)
Exemple: the starter is a AL MCZ-4001 UT which comes after US serial
#74419 (This is Engine serial MC74419). So when I look for parts I always look for the late serial#
parts in ORD 9.
As for a very clear and concise list of differences between the two
well it will be short
1) Data plates. None on the right rear fender (but the 4 holes are
there) A copy of them is included with this e-mail, taken from
CDN-OM9-804. You can compare the diff between the two sets ex:
measurements are imperial. You will notice also that one of the data
plates referes to SNL G-740 for parts list and TM 9-804, 1804A, 1804B for
maintenance
2) Convoy lamp (Field modification added later) I will try to come up
with pics of the location of the switch and lamp
3) Fire extinguisher installed on the left fender.
4) Might have had tires marked Good Year Canada on them
mine had 4 Good Year Canada , 2 dated 1958 and 2 dated 1960

That's it
Jacques Dorion

Some Canadian M38 Production Facts (<http://www.m38a1.ca/m38.html>)


Ford of Canada assembled 2,135 M38-CDN. The following facts come from an
article by Robert Grieve published in the OMVA CMP Magazine Issue No.
13, May 1996.

Some items to note about Canadian M38 production:

1. All Canadian M38's were assembled by Ford Motor Company of Canada
in Windsor, Ontario, from February to November 1952.
2. The average cost per M38 was $2600 (the first contract of 840
vehicles cost $2807 per vehicle).
3. All vehicles where shipped from Windsor to Hagersville, Ontario
to be inspected and put into military service.
4. The last vehicle produced by Ford was serial number F102135 and
it was delivered on 27 November 1952 (as researched at Ford by Peter
Simundson).
5. Winches where installed and delivered on a separate purchase
order program by Ramsey Winch Co.
6. All M38's were equipped with a convoy lamp installed as a field
modification that was done upon receipt by RCEME [Royal Canadian
Electrical and Mechanical Engineers].
7. Vehicles shipped by rail transport had eight tie downs installed
on the frame. Vehicles shipped overseas to Norway or Cyprus had eight
tie downs on the frame and also has hold down rigns installed to the
four spring shackle plates.



954
G-Staff Sergeant



Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 50
Location: Burnaby, BC, CANADA

Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:10 am Post subject: M38 CDN numbers
SOAP BOX
1. I hate "forum sign in" routines. Bloody annoying!
2. My draft long message got dumped when I went back to check on some facts in postings in this string.

OK, now to the facts.

I have several thousand military jeeps in my data base. I have owned two M38 CDN jeeps over the years (as well as MBs, GPW, GPA and M38A1CDN, M100, M100 CDN etc.) :

52-31313 is Canadian Army Registration (CAR) number. All Canadian Army 1/4 tons bought in the 1950s were in put in the 30,000 range. First two digits are year of issue. M38 CDN were made in 1952 by Ford in Canada. This CAR is NOT the VIN number! The CAR number was painted on both sides of the body in white - usually under door wells, but sometimes on sides of hood. Occasionally a spare wheel would have the last three digits of the CAR painted on them to discourage theft (e.g. by switching wheels.) CAR numbers only ROUGHLY correspond to vehicles' serial numbers - my data base shows there is no exact correlation. Looks like vehicles were parked in a field and then CAR assigned. CAR also stamped into top of left frame rail between grill and front bumper. The dash "-"is a "1" either horizontal or sloped "/".

The date for yours would be in late June or early July 1952. Dates were stamped e.g. 7-12-52 (July 12 1952).

Here are some that are close to yours.

F101187 52-3???? 6-26-52 Contract No. E-20 LV7 742 ARMY. Ordnance Code: 2230 FORD MOTOR CO. OF CANADA TRUCK UTILITY 1/4 TON 4X4 M38 CDN WO/WN (i.e. withoutr winch, W/WN would be with winch)Only data plate set survives. Colin Stevens' collection.

F101247 52-3???? 6-31-52

F1????? 52-31313 ??????? YOURS. I estimate date to be about July 10-12 1952.

F101294 52-3???? 7-10-52 Only data plate survives (in Ontario?)

F101343 52-31359 7-12-52 Contact: E20 LV7 742 ARMY Owner George Arsoniadis of British Columbia, Canada.

By the way in the incorrect SN you have in your signature block, you have an extra zero.
_________________
Colin Macgregor Stevens, MVPA #954
Burnaby, British Columbia, CANADA cmstevens@telus.net
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net
http://www.westerncommand.com
Owner of: 1944 MB; 1942 GPA; 1942 BSA airborne bicycles



Hello Wes
please feel free to share my email with the group.
I think he was referring to the first contract of M38A1 jeeps built for the Canadian forces. This would have been for 700 or so M38A1 CDN jeeps that were produced at Ford in 1953. The M38CDN contract was concluded in 1952 so I do not think they were produced together. I think the term "turned over" referred to all the production data for the M38 in 52 and the data for the M38A1's was turned over in 53 to the Department of National Defence. Hmm . I wonder if it still exists in some archive in Ottawa.
Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: tomatotruck993@yahoo.com
To: Steve and Jennifer Johnson
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: RCAF M38A1
Steve,
Very interesting. Glad you sorted this out for us. Can I add your email to my CDN notes and post it on the Yahoo Group? What did Sandy refer to when he said' "---- M38 & M38A Jeeps be turned over"? Could he have meant M38A1's were produced by Ford Canada in 1952 & 53 along with the M38? Be interesting to find out. I look forward to some quality closeup digitals from the new A1. Would like to get a comparison document started on differences between roughly the same year group US M38A1 vs Canadian M38A1. Our Air Force did the same thing with trucks used on the flightline being painted high vis yellow. In the 60's the USAF transitioned to the carc green for all equipment and vehicles deployed or subject to deployment to SEA.
Wes K

Steve and Jennifer Johnson <jssjohnson@shaw.ca> wrote:
Hello Wes
Here are some Photos of that 1953 M38A1 RCAF jeep I recovered this summer. There are some shots of the transport home and getting it parked for winter storage. You will notice the cut-out back panel. I have learned that this was a Canadian Airforce mod and a quick remove panel was put there to allow for easy access to the back for ropes and jacks etc. as the truck was used as a crash tender. The yellow colour is apparently correct RCAF also for some later period. From what I understand at some point they painted the CDN airforce trucks (High Visibility Yellow) Though I much prefer the original blue.
On another note. You know that discussion we were having online with regard to the script on the front of the M38 Toolbox and that it seems like the CDN ones do not have it.
I contacted the Heritage division of Ford of Canada and here is how they responded. Let me know what you think.
Hi Steve:
Part of the agreement with Willy's was that after production ceased, all records relating to the production (1952 & 1953) of the M-38 & M-38A Jeeps be turned over to the Canadian Military as classified material. What happened to the records after that is anyone's guess, as I have tried through the DND to access any records. We have only the serial number sequences for the units. Under license indicates that Ford was authorised to produce the vehicles here under the Willy's name (but with Ford of Canada on the data plate). As far as I know all the parts were produced here, not imported from Willy's, which was busy producing jeeps for the US Army at the time (the Korean War was taking place at the time). Of course, Willys provided all the design specifications for the jeeps.
Sandy Notarianni
Historical Consultant, Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited
CHQ 624A
(905) 845-2511 Ext. 1562 FAX: (905) 844-1198
snotaria@ford.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve and Jennifer Johnson [mailto:jssjohnson@shaw.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 12:28 AM
To: Notarianni, Sandy (S.M.)
Subject: 1952 Canadian M38 Jeeps built by Ford of Canada

Hello Sandy
I am restoring a 1952 M38CDN 1/4 ton truck (Jeep). On your heritage site is the following info.
Even after the war, Ford of Canada filled a large order of military Jeeps. Production took place in late 1951 through 1955. Built under license from Willys, they were known as M-38 Ford trucks. During 1952, a total of 2438 were made.
What does built under license mean?
Were the 1952CDN Jeeps just assembled from parts sent from Willys or did Ford of Canada fabricate the Jeeps or any of their parts to Willys Specifications under the license agreement.
Best Regards
Steve Johnson




_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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north-shore
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Joined: Dec 11, 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Tracadie-sheila Canada

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Very Happy

thx for all the infot sorry if i ask to many question Embarassed it all new to me Wink

i getting beter now Razz
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north-shore
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Location: Tracadie-sheila Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Very Happy

My frame numbers is 52-31558 Wink waiting for infot Razz

thx
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OKCM38CDN
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Per my calculations, your serial number on the data plates would be F101539...

Not sure of the date of delivery, maybe 8/52...

I am no expert here so if someone else can provid better answers I will bow out...

Hope this helps...
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north-shore
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Location: Tracadie-sheila Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Very Happy

So your not sure? how i will be really sure Confused

thx
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wesk
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Eric,

Sorting out numbers from our data base is not easy. There is chaos in their arrangement. I can't believe Ford of Canada could have done such a poor job of keeping the production line flow smooth, orderly and sequential but from the numbers our members have submitted we must assume that M38CDN production was extremely erratic and virtually untracable.

Try yourself to place your jeeps serial in sequence with this list and then try to make sense of the results.

F100001 Feb 52 Start production
F100113 52-30559
F100409 52-30139
F100420 C87083 ? 5-1-52
F100462 52-30361 May 1,
F100655 52-30515 5-5-52
F100772 52-30671 5-9-52
F100822 52-31153 5-22-52
F100962 52-30965
F101297 52-31313
F101445 7-23-52
F101563 52-31608 8-3-52 NA
F101634 52-31810
F101642 52-31658 08-02-1952
F101696 52-31707 08-25-52
F101782 52-31795 9-11-52
F101783 52-32068 9-16-
F102135 Nov 27 52 End production
F10xxxx 52-30414 unk
_________________
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100

Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
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Liviu
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Location: Montreal, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eric,
We are a few guys with jeeps here in Montreal and if you need any help you can call Marc Daher 514-867-5337.
He works as a mechanic for Doge Chrysler on Des Sources and he is crazy about jeeps. Very nice guy.

Liviu
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north-shore
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Very Happy

Thanks for all the info Wink and for the montréal member salut i will contact you by MP Razz
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jeeplivin
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Location: Belmont , Ontario ,Canada

PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peter Simundson didn't have knowledge of the F-102127 M38 Cdn here that has a delivery date of Feb 1953 when doing his studies ,I'm thinking.... There are some data tag pics [3] in the vintage photos section with jeeplivin in the heading.....
This jeep was rescued by me -and tilt'n'loaded ,from the Petawawa Military base a while back after I'd seen these data tags on it....
Was it held back for some reason ? Did it get sidelined temporarily for some reason awaiting parts,etc? On a specific contract [ E-20-LV7 742-ARMY ] yet it came a bit late..... which definately contradicts the date of the last known m38 Cdn known delivery date,as per Peters study with the available information at the time..

Its paperwork through our govt also lists it as a '53 Ford .....Excellent steel solid rust free example .....also not for sale....
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north-shore
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
Got a data plate for the jeep this is a erlay one Laughing
F100079 date of production 2-13-52 Wink
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charlesfitton
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the one I just got - 52 - 30105 could be a Valentine Day jeep?
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