Dana 25 Steering Knuckle Adjustment

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:51 pm

I put my steering Knuckle on the drivers side of the axle housing today putting the bearings and king pin caps back in the exact spot they were in when I got the Jeep. Per the manual I should have 6 to 9 pounds of pull with my pull scale, but I'm only getting 5 pounds with ALL of the shims removed.

What's my next course of action...buy new parts or have the knuckle milled ?

Thanks,

Mike B

Post by **wesk** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:31 pm

What did it read when you had all the original shims installed in the top joint?

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:48 pm

With all of the shims installed the way I got it the knuckle with the brake drum and ball seals in place was very loose. It's no wonder the VFD complained about the death wobble. The bottom bearing cage showed signs of having to long of a bolt holding the cap on. I think the longer bolts that were meant for the top brake line guard were installed in the wrong place (I never thought to check each bolt length as I disassembled everything). The cage wasn't damaged, just polished a bit.

Today when I put all of the bolts in their correct locations and all of the shims on the top cap (as it was when I got it) the knuckle had up and down movement and zero resistance.

Mike B

Post by **wesk** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:35 am

Have you traced the movement to a specific location? IE upper or lower king pin bearings/housings or knuckle ball slop?

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:19 am

With no shims the knuckle feels good with no detectable issues, it just doesn't make the 6-9 pounds of drag...only comes up to 5 pounds.

I'm going assemble the right side later today and see how it does.

Mike B

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:54 pm

Just did the right side and it's the exact same as the left, no shims and 5 pounds of pull on the scale...I'm at a loss as what to do or should I just call it close enough and done?

Mike B

Post by **wesk** » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:36 pm

I have assumed you were working with a Stock M38A1 that will not adjust pivot friction per the manual but you should have a positive indication of wear either in the Pivot bearings or their races or their housings or the balls or their knuckle surfaces if you cannot attain the required friction.

Re-reading I am now thinking, based on the longer bolts you mentioned, you may have CJ2A or early CJ3A front axle knuckles. These knuckles require an equal number of shims top and bottom pivot bearing caps. The later CJ3A and on (Including M38/M38A1 used a thicker lower pivot bearing cap boss eliminating the need for shims on the bottom. The bearing caps themselves are the same thickness. The meat was added to the lower boss only.

Since you would need a guaranteed correct late axle assembly to measure the lower boss for comparison it will be easier just to add an equal thickness of shims to your lower cap and see if the tension increases.

Read the ("Note:) starting center of left column about bothe 2A and the 3A

M38A1 note shims item "E" only used upper.

CJ2A, note shims, item "14", used upper and lower CJ-2A

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:31 pm

Wes,

I'm 99% sure I have the correct knuckles, the have the cast steering arm gussets and the bottom king pin mount pad is .050 taller than the top.

I guess it could be warn bearings or cups, but visually they all looked good.

As for adding shims at the bottom, that would just increase the total crush distance making things loose again. So I can either leave all of the shims out and call 5# good, or buy new bearings and cups and see if that changes things.

As a side note, I did pack the bearings with wheel bearing grease before assembly...is the test supposed to be done dry?

Thanks,

Mike B

Post by **wesk** » Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:42 pm

I usually do the tension check with everything clean and dry. Did you read the paragraph M-15 on the civvy manual page I posted? Read the last two sentences carefully. This is the only Willys manual for the open body jeeps that offers this washer option. TM 9-8015-2 does not and the civvy CJ5 manual SM 1046 does not. The TM 9-8015-2 seems to say grease bearings before tension check whereas the civvy manuals do not specify.

Are you checking tension with knuckle oil seals installed or removed?

Note difference in referenced scale reading with seals removed vs installed.

RonD2 · Post by **RonD2** » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:05 pm

When I just did mine it never occured to me that bearings were supposed to be dry when measuring pull tension. I assume when the manual says to "assemble" and then test it means to properly lube the bearings and then take the measurement. The manual makes no reference after testing to re-assembly but maybe they don't have to say the obvious?

Am guessing dry would yield a lot higher pull than lubricated. It doesn't make much sense to me to assemble and test dry bearings --- in all the forum topics on subject this is the first I ever heard it. Why not figure out the lubed tension and do it the first time? If I missed the boat I'm sure it'll soon become evident...

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:49 pm

Wes,

I missed paragraph M-15...

Adding a washer/shim should work.

Yes, my seals have been removed

TM9-8015-2 and TM9-8014 say to adjust to 6-9 pounds with seals removed and paragraph M-15 says to adjust to 12-16 pounds also with the seals removed...so which manual is correct???

I think I'll try the washer trick and see what happens, I might be able to make them out of some shim stock and I'll stick with the 6-9 pound range...

Mike B

Post by **wesk** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:03 am

Mike,

The two M38A1 TM's actually DO NOT both say 6-9 lbs with seals removed. The TM 9-8014 says 6-9 with seals removed but that TM also shows the knuckle in figure 145 on page 257 having shims at top and bottom caps. TM 9-8015-2 says ." 6-9 pounds (3 - 5 LbFt) without the oil seals Since the 8015-2 is the intermediate maintenance level (higher then organizational in 8014) it will take precedence. That begs clarification of what tension tool is used that measures in LbFt? That would usually be a torque wrench. Are you using a spring scale or torque wrench?

TM 9-8015-2 page

TM 9-8014 page.

Keep in mind that TM 9-8014 is dated April 1955, TM 9=-8015-2 is dated August 1954. The two civilian manuals that cover the CJ5, produced 1955 thru 1972, are SM-1002 dated 1965 and SM-1046 dated 1971. 10 and 16 years newer respectively then either of the old military service manuals.

SM-1002 Knuckle adjustment

SM-1046 Knuckle Adjustment

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:53 pm

So, if I'm reading this correctly the Civvy manuals want 12-16 pounds and the Military wants 6-9 pounds using a spring scale (which is what I'm using).

I read all of your posted sheets and see the wording different regarding the seals..."with seals removed" or "without seals" or being step 5 "adjust" inferring no seals because step 6 is install seals. I don't see any saying to adjust with seals installed.

Putting this all aside if you were setting up your A1 Jeep, would you use the 6-9 or 12-16 pound adjustment ranges on the spring scale? Would you continue to make adjustments if 5 pounds was what you got with no shims?

I think I'll go calibrate my spring scale now, just to confirm it's reading right.

Thanks!

Mike B

Mike_B · Post by **Mike_B** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:04 pm

Just checked the accuracy of my spring scale and it's dead on, so my 5# readings are accurate...

Mike B

Post by **wesk** » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:59 pm

My point in showing you all the conflicting data out there was to enlighten not direct a specific action. Of all the choices if I were 100 % POSITIVE ALL PARTS WERE NOT WORN BEYOND LIMITS OR DAMAGED IN ANY WAY I would try the washer trick.

The washer trick is also mentioned here in The Novac Knuckle Rebuild Guide:

http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/st ... kle-repair