willysmjeeps.com

Have you ever had the fenders mounted to this jeep before you did the work? I dont know m38a1s real well and how to tell the fenders, but are you sure you dont have a later model cj5 fender? Maybe reprodections that are really for a latter model jeep? I am probably way off here but I cant think of anything else that would cause that in my experiance.

When I first got the jeep, the hood / grill / fenders were off. But they were all painted the same color as the tub -- which implys to me that they were all mounted at one point in time.

My dad and I actually thought that was the cause too...and we're trying to call his friend who had this before to see if he can take a trip down memory lane, but he's a pilot -- and probably in Munich or some place half way around the world now.

I talked to a guy from Army Jeep Parts who lives basically 5 miles away from me. He said he would take a look at it this weekend, and hopefully we can figure out if this was just a bastard of a tub to begin with -- and furthuremore how to go about doing the simplest, least destructive fix to it.

Have you measured the length of the fenders?

I think this calls for a large hammer and a torch! If you've got George from AJP coming to help, you are in good hands - let us know what the outcome is - I suspect wrong fenders.

Haha.

+/- 38 inches is how long the fender is.

Even if they were the wrong fenders, I still come back to the data point that all of this bolted together 25 years ago.

Bob,

George at AJP should be able to help you out! Let us know what you guys find out.

I know you probably already did, but have you put the tub where it should be and see what holes line up?

Let us know as I know at least I am very curious.

Nick from AJP (George's partner in crime) took a look at it today and was equally confused about this. We were on the phone with George a lot, and another guy in New Jersey that used to work with AJP and still does military restorations. We came up with a couple theories of how this happened, and how to fix it.

Part of the problem is I don't know what the correct position is. If I put the tub on so all of the hat channels line up, the fenders don't fit...nor does the hood. If I put the fenders on perfectly, the jeep extends off the rear cross member 1/2-ish of an inch. I thought the M38A1s had a flush rear...that is to say, the back panel and rear cross member were flush. But George was saying that they can overhang just about the same distance as mine.

With that said, we're all using the front end as the "Bible." If I line up the fenders correctly with the grill, they also line up with the proper holes on the frame, so that leads us to think that the front end is correct.

We also talked to the previous owner that had this jeep. He was equally puzzled, as he said when he took everything off 25 years ago, it worked.

Took a look at some pictures I took when I recieved it. Take a look at this rear panel:

As opposed to the picture of the other one on one of my previous posts. To me, that looks flush.

The only question is if the owner left it in that position or if he moved it forward to that position. I do remember most of the bolts being out, and the remaining loose...cause I remember he was going to do some work with the tub. Now that I think about it actually...he restored the frame way back when, so he HAD to have taken the tub off...and probably just placed it back in the most logical position.

We were going to try to bolt everything up, then slowly pull the tub forward with some straps and 2x4s running across the grill and dash. Not to get it in the perfect position, but rather, to move it closer so it lines up. But I was afraid of buckling the fenders. And actually, now that I think about it, that cant work...because then the hood wont fit correctly, right?

....what the heck went on here? This is annoying!

You said in a previous post that te rear end had been damaged in a wreck, could the rear frame been reworked to get the damage out???

In your situation I would mount the front clip and work backwards.

Also measure your fram length to see if some metal has been removed somewhere... 25 yrs is a long time to remember everything...

My 2 cents worth...

I think you have answered all your questions. The front two vertical mount points at the tow board gussets should be you first bolt ins. With that locked in place the front sheet metal should fit. If it does then you just need to addres the precious frame and tub rework errors to get the rest lined up. Have you ever bothered to measure the frame squareness in accordance with the manual?

The frame to your A1 is the same as the first bottom brick is to a building, the foundation. If it's wrong then it's all wrong. Troubleshooting tub fit problems on an unkown frame alignment is like shooting in the dark.


These pages are from TM 9-8015-2 (you're body, frame and running gear manual).





The full size scans are at: http://willysm38a1.mypicgallery.com/

I personally never checked the frame for squareness, but when the previous owner undercoated the frame, all of that happened.

Square or not square, I still come back to the datapoint that all of this stuff fit years ago until the previous owner started to take it apart.

The fact that the hat channels that I never touched, and the vertical support that runs behind the passanger and driver seat (that I also didnt touch) dont line up either when the fenders or grill is mounted is super puzzling.

Hal - Frame was never cut. WHen I say accident, It was either a minor accident or someone simply backed up too far. The frame was untouched, that part is totally straight.

There was one modification I found on my frame. 2 diagonal pieces were added. Both running from one side of the frame to the rear cross member. But I found OD paint on that, which suggests to me that it was a motor pool modification.


Also, if it was cut or bent, that would mean I would have a helluva time fitting the powertrain in. Driveshaft distances would be messed up, spring shackles would be in the wrong place, the crossmember that runs under the transmission wouldnt of had bolted up, and finally, the distances that my fenders are off would be different. Keep in mind, both fenders are equally spaces off from the mounting holes in the grill AND in the frame.

Here's a very good looking stock A1 rear end:

Thanks the picture Wes! Looks to me like that one hangs off a little bit, yet a little hard to tell because of the angle. Anyone else agree with me?

Right now Im thinking of just redrilling the holes in the frame for the tub...Nick and George both said they have seen several jeeps where the holes were enlongated / redrilled, so it wouldn't be too far fetched if I did the same thing.

Bob,
You have a vehicle that is half a CENTURY old and God only knows what actual repairs have been carried out on it iduring those 50 years.

You have given us a lot of conflicting data and have yet to comply with a test fitting we have asked you to do.

Install the tub with the two vertical front mounts bolted up and then tell us where everything else falls. It would help if you took the above photo of the complete frame from my site and drew the resultant alignment locations or error for each tub mount.

Those diagonal braces to the pintle plate are factory installed.

I'll send you a few photos.

Bob,

That rear M38A1 photo that Wes just posted appears
to have a mall over-hang.

If I understand this so far:

The front sheet metal and the tub mounting
locations do not line up when assembled together.

After you assemble the front sheet metal, then the
tub does not line up to the frame mounting holes.

This could mean:

1. Tub and Fenders were not together, even if the
paint schemes are similar (could the previous owner
had two M38A1's painted similarly and then mixed up
parts when working on them?)

2. Tub or fenders have had some damage in the past
when on the vehicle or off the vehicle.
(ie: bent mounting bracket, etc.)

3. Frame could have some damage. NOTE: A small amount of
damage in one location can have a fulcrum effect. Ergo, the
damaged area may be small and not obviously noticable, but
can have demonstrable effects further down on the frame.
This could be something as small as a mounting bracket on
a panel or on the frame that has been bent a little.

To rule out number 3, you can measure the frame points
listed in the manual that Wes mentioned.

To rule out number 2, you could take your fenders/ tub over
to AJP and measure it against one of theirs. I am sure they
have some parts laying around. You could also ask to borrow
one of thier pairs of front fenders just to see if it would work
with your tub.

Now if the frame measures out OK and you cannot obtain
alignment, then either 1 or 2 are the most likely, no matter
how improbable they are.

Bob, I hope you don't get frustrated. I know you have the
persistence to work this through. It will be a great life lesson
on problem solving and a great character builder!

Most guys your age are working on carpal tunnel sydrome from
playing video games all day long.

That small overhyang happens when you keep backing into trees with the bumperette.