1952 M38 20943735

Halfbob · Post by **Halfbob** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:14 pm

My $800.00 Barn find in N.C
1952 M38 hood #20943735 30th infantry 105M C-3
of course S/N placards gone but trying to date it
I have the reference guide and have dated it to about 5/1952
if there is any way to cross the hood # with production date could use some help!!!
20943735 was on the hood 3 times as I sanded it down.
twice with U.S. Army above it and the final time with U.S.A above it.
I have a gallery with photo's under halfbob
any info would be helpful.
Thanks[/img]

MarkR1951M38 · Post by **MarkR1951M38** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:09 am

My 1951 M38 data plate has a serial number of 22731. So after the 20 for recon vehicle, not sure how your SN got to 943K from 22k in 11 months. I don't think they made that many M38's. There must be some renumbering start somewhere. I'm curious too.

<edited> Oh, my delivery date was 6-51 on data plate.

Maybe Wes or others will chime in.

Post by **wesk** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:09 am

Hood #'s are called registration numbers. The Army ordered/procured their jeeps and maintained their jeeps by registration number. The only time a jeep's serial number found any consideration by the Army was when the shop was ordering parts.

The Army has assigned blocks of serial numbers to each purchase contract of all it's wheeled and tracked vehicles since the beginning of Tactical Vehicle existence. Contracts have not always run consecutively and neither have the registration numbers always been consecutive. Thus the accuracy of the use of registration numbers to date an Army vehicle is low.

An example of the helter/skelter registration numbering is:

Contract #:
W-20-089-4758 --4,000 units --- MC10001 thru MC14000 -- Del 6/50 - 1/51
DA-20-018-ORD-9196 - 8,000 -- MC14001 - MC22351 -- Del 1/51 - 8/51
DA-33-019-ORD-494 -- 533 ---- MC64200 - MC64735 -- Del 4/52 - 4/52
DA-20-089-ORD-4601FS -12,500-MC22352 - MC34852 -- Del 6/51 - 9/51
DA-33-019-ORD-43 -- 28,750 --- MC34853 - MC63603 -- Del 10/51 - 4/52
DA-33-019-ORD-630 - 7,594 --- MC64736 - MC72329 -- Del 4/52 - 7/52

This last contract -630 was continued with M38A1 production 7/52 thru 5/55.

The WWII jeep collectors were lucky they found preserved copies of all their procurement contracts before Willys Toledo stop keeping them back in the late 50's / early 60's. These contracts showed the batch of hood/registration numbers assigned to them. Post WWII military vehicles did not have this kind of luck.

Data bases are a great thing for our hobby but they are only as reliable as the integrity that produced them. When our survey asks for the hood number of your jeep we make it clear by asking for two numbers. The one found to be original and hidden under the paint and the one it sports today. Even this precaution is no guarantee of accuracy since the bolted on hoods are easily swapped out, just like the screwed on dash serial plate & patent plate.

The only accurate hood numbers that had available serial plates (again keep in mind that even with totally honest data input from owners these hoods and data plates could easily have been switched around over the past 1/2 CENTURY!) I have recorded in our databases. With this info we can try to allign hood numbers with serials & contracts:

M38 Contracts:

-4758 --- 2368159 - 23686XX

-9196 --- 2385XXX - 2089XXXX Note that around MC20XXX the hood numbering switched from 7 digits to 8 digits.

-494 --- 2095XXXX - 2095XXXX

-4601FS -- 2089XXX - 2090XXXX

-43 ----- 2090XXXX - 2091XXXX

-630 --- 2091XXXX - 20948XXX

Post by **wesk** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:07 am

Mark,

I believe you have mixed apples with oranges here:

My 1951 M38 data plate has a serial number of 22731. So after the 20 for recon vehicle, not sure how your SN got to 943K from 22k in 11 months.

22731 is a Willys serial number and 943XX is part of an Army hood registration number 20943XXX.

I have 2 Jun 51 hood numbers in the data base: 20891049 (on MC22936) & 20891908 (on MC23867).

If I subract your serial number from the 1st sn 22936 = 205. If I subtract 205 from the 1st hood # 20891049 I get 20890844 which should be very close to your hood number (which you did not tell us).

Bob hood registration number 20943735 would be approximately an April 1952 unit around serial number MC642XX.

Finally keep in mind that in addition to the many variables with these numbering systems I mentioned in my post above there was also the problem at Willys when an m38 or group of M38's got sidelined from their original positions on the assembly for parts or corrections. The problem is Willys painted the hood numbers on the M38's sequentially as they rolled off the line. When a serial number or group of M38 serial numbers got sideligned they would finally roll out off the line out of serial number sequence but their hood numbers that got painted on were in sequence for the jeeps they came off the line with.

The Bottom Line here is this not a mathematical science. It is a series of best guesses.

4x4M38 · Post by **4x4M38** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:22 pm

For what it’s worth I show a change in registration (hood)
numbers sometime after s/n 22085, 2392480,
To s/n 22825, 20890861, from 7 digits to 8.

Those jeeps are only 740 units apart.

I’m sure the change is in Ryan’s book somewhere.

The first unit I show with a 2094 number in my modest
and growing database is 68199, hood 20943284.

The next one with a big gap is 68995, hood 20945135.

RonD2 · Post by **RonD2** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:46 pm

What really grabs me about M38 production: they made 62,329 in 25 months.

That works out to 2,493 every month, 83 every day, and 3.5 every hour of every day.

24/7 no time off.

kenperkins · Post by **kenperkins** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:40 pm

Back in about '91, MVPA sent out a questionnaire to members regarding vehicle ownership similar to Wes's. Their data came up incomplete as owners didn't include serial and hood numbers as much as would have been liked. This came out in the MVPA D-5 directory in '92.
I went through that directory and made a list of 43 supplied M38 serial numbers with hood numbers.
in the interest of being "close" my list shows...
MC 68114-20943191
MC68135-20943275
MC xxxxx-20943735
MC68828-20943895
would be great if we could just do the math...

Halfbob · Post by **Halfbob** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:04 pm

I have a copy of Ryan Millers M38 reference guide and Wes's serial number data base.
I also have 2 of Wes's questionnaire's because I have a early M38 and 20943735.
I hope to be able to Identify the early jeep once I start removing paint.
I do appreciate you gentlemen sharing your knowledge and hope to have both these jeeps restored as close to there original glory as possible.
Thanks
Robert D Long NCFS

radtech · Post by **radtech** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:06 pm

My Dec.1950 M38 has a reg.no.2365481. This is the original number that was on the hood.3 different layers of paint with the same number each time.Serial number 10675.1st layer small numbers and letters with USA.2nd layer small numbers and letters with US Army.3rd layer large numbers and letters and US Army.4th layer desert tan no numbers.

Post by **wesk** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:10 pm

I do not trust any borrowed data for my databases. The original database I obtained 20 years ago was 3 pages. I flushed all the unverified data from those listings which did not leave much. As I gathered more surveys over the years I feel much better including hood numbers that were given in reply to my surveys which ask the owner to confirm the hood number is original by removal of paint. no paint removal means un-verified. That simple.

It is irritating to me when folks contrive hood numbers that will be close but still not guaranteed correct. I have always asked folks that do not have an original hood number to contrive a number that is clearly made up so future historians won't have to wade thru the fake #'s. IE using the last 4 of the jeep's serial number will become obvious as a contrived number 20 years from now when someone is working on a database.

It's tough to accept the level of dis-honesty that exists in our hobby today!

oilleaker1 · Post by **oilleaker1** » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:36 am

The other problem is hoods can be replaced. The paint may look original, but a motor pool could have done it also. Vin plates replaced or swapped on the dashes and tubs , replaced tubs, all add to the mess. The holy grail is a actual war time picture of your Jeep with hood number. John

Halfbob · Post by **Halfbob** » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:41 am

Wes on 20943735 I pulled the windshield and chemically striped all paint off the frame and on the frame I found 20943735 etched .
Looks like it was done at the factory to keep the major parts for 20943735 with the frame.
Have you seen this before?
Thanks
Robert D Long NCFS

Post by **wesk** » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:55 am

It's not done at the factory. It was a common practice at military overhaul depots. These depots located here and abroad used an assembly line process and all the jeeps were torn down then repaired, rebuilt and re-assembled. It was not so much to keep all parts together as it was to keep both the frame & tub married to each other. You rarely find any other parts marked with the jeep's serial or registration #'s. Probably less than 20 % of the remaining jeeps have ID's like this on them.

MarkR1951M38 · Post by **MarkR1951M38** » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:02 am

Well crap...Thanks Wes for the hood vs SN info. I was under the misunderstanding that the hood numbers contained the SN. My M38 came to me in pieces with two hoods...one was an M38 hood (cutout for snorkle and elect) and the other is from a CJ (it has Willy's on the sides). My data plate and patent plate were both "off" the tub so I can't be real sure they are even accurate or real. Both of these hoods were sanded down to bare metal so I have no exact hood number. As a result, I am using 20 and my SN as the hood number....2022731. As you said, seeing the SN in the hood number will show that it is derived. Or if you suggest otherwise, I'd be glad to change it.
Thanks again for the straight poop.

4x4M38 · Post by **4x4M38** » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:18 pm

Iirc 20 is the WWII designation for the jeeps, or recon.

The first M38’s started with 236xxxx.

Take care,