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Bretto Member
Joined: Nov 24, 2010 Posts: 1390 Location: Orem, UT
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: Star stencil |
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I plan on making star stencils at some point for the M38 but had an easy question.
How is the star measured. From one point to the opposite like on a 5 lug wheel or is it the size of a circle that the star would fit into. I'd guess the 1st.
Here is a pic. What distance (between dots) is measured
A or B. Circle is invisible of course. And is it a 15" or 20" for the hood? Seems I have been reading both #'s
_________________ Brett
'51 M38
PHOTO DIARY OF MY BUILD |
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wesk Site Administrator
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 16256 Location: Wisconsin
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Bretto Member
Joined: Nov 24, 2010 Posts: 1390 Location: Orem, UT
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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I am going to play the pure ignorance card when it comes to unit markings. I know nothing where to start or the history of my rig with what would be acceptable without looking like a baffoon. Only info I was given, is that it came back from service Germany.
For the hood # I am having to do the 208XXXXX (serial #) but for the bumper unit markings.....?????
And regarding the star, I suppose it depends on the date if it ever got star markings if it was 15" or 20" right? Comes down to choice as I see it.
I appreciate your patience in this matter. _________________ Brett
'51 M38
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wesk Site Administrator
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 16256 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Read the two references I posted links to and you will then understand the unit marking system. The easiest place to get some Ideas on unit markings used on jeeps in Europe are the MP unit web sites. I doubt a 15" star was ever placed on a M38 by the Army. Only a handful of M38's made it to Korea before the end of the war and the beginning of the Armistice. Stars were the choice of the theater commander and were meant to be used where we did not have air superiority.
Some easy web sites:
http://www.berlin-brigade.de/pmo/mp-e.html
Europe 1950's
An MB in Europe 1951
Europe 1953
Europe 1953
M38A1 in the 60's Germany. Note 20" star.
_____________________________________________________
Korea Aug 50 note incorrect star placement and it is much larger than 15".
Korea 1950
Sep 1950 Korea MB with 20" star _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php |
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Beast Member
Joined: Sep 25, 2011 Posts: 119 Location: Silver Lake Mi.
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: |
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As for unit markings here is how they are made up:
Unit Markings:
These are the number/letter markings found on the front and rear bumpers of the trucks. The US Marine Corps did not use these markings. These markings were required to be in the largest practical size but not over 4 inches in height. Any symbols used outside the normal letters and numbers were to be as close to the same size as the lettering. Initially these were to be of paint that could be removed with gasoline or removable vinyl letters.
Reading such markings from left to right on a front bumper would tell us a lot about the vehicles assignment, to include:
1. The Major Command it is assigned to
2. The Intermediate Command it is assigned to
3. The Unit or Activity it is assigned to
4. The vehicle number for convoy purposes, aka: Order of March
Looking at the front bumper would look like this:
(#1 #2) star (#3 #4) _________________ Dave
53' M38a1, 53' M37, 67' M715, 67' M725, 67' M35a2
http://www.davidallenracing.com/motorpool.htm
Delta Team Decals http://www.deltateamdecals.com/ |
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BBDE Member
Joined: Mar 05, 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Berlin Germany
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: |
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That picture of the MB was taken in Berlin in 1949, Airlift period.
Those Jeeps where used for patroling the transit ways from and to Berlin and Helmstedt between the checkpoints ALPHA and BRAVO.
In the post war era, most (not all) Vehicles went to the paintshops, lost the stars and got the more visible white Bumpers painted. Those vehicles got some darker glossy olive paint too.
In the 1950īs some M38īs where with Stars and some without.
Vehicles that where used in transportation companys and for parade use hadnīt Stars applied on.
The M38 in the first Picture from Wes was taken 1951 and shows one of the parade Jeeps.
Crome grille, white seats,handle bar for the general behind the seats.
The generals sign is covered.
Note the tires too. One of the Berlin command specials.
The picture from the M38A1 was taken in october 1961 during the Tank confrontation at Checkpoint Charlie.
Berlin Brigade. de is the website of a friend of mine.
There are a lot of nice pictures ( M38 and A1) and some information.
Stars on a M38 hood used in Berlin : 15ī
Star on the Hood of a M38A1 used in Berlin 1960: 20`
Frank |
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Bretto Member
Joined: Nov 24, 2010 Posts: 1390 Location: Orem, UT
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I have read and sort of understand now. Without knowing any prev history, so far have just conjured up this.
#1 - #2 #3 - #4
(numeral)A - ???? STAR HQ-(numeral)
Means nothing. I am not sure what I can get away with or could put in the #2 position. This is nothing more than for cosmetics. _________________ Brett
'51 M38
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PaulB Member
Joined: Jul 15, 2006 Posts: 78 Location: Kentucky
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Here is a shot of my bumper number stencils on my early 1951 M38. Very few photos of M38s with the 14th Armored Cav in Germany had stars of any kind. None had hood stars or bumper stars as far as I can tell. If they had any they were the small ones on the rear.
Here is the breakdown of my numbers...
7A - 7th Army
14 (triangle) C - 14th Armored Cavalry
bumper star (no star, no 14th Cav M38s had them)
A - (Alpha Company, part of 1st Battalion)
26 - vehicle 26
And a screen capture from a short clip on 14th A/C M38s on patrol in the Fulda Gap, 1954.
[/img] _________________ Paul
April 1951 M38
http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=PaulB&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php |
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Bretto Member
Joined: Nov 24, 2010 Posts: 1390 Location: Orem, UT
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Paul is that your actual M38 in that older shot or is that one you just used the #'s from?
I know I will just have to come with something on my own, following the marking guidlines of course.
Thanks all. _________________ Brett
'51 M38
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BBDE Member
Joined: Mar 05, 2008 Posts: 77 Location: Berlin Germany
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes the stars where painted left and right on the M38 windshieldframe in 6ī and not on the front bumper.
Frank |
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wesk Site Administrator
Joined: Apr 04, 2005 Posts: 16256 Location: Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Actually the old period photo is a different set of numbers. I company 25 vehicle in the line of march.
What is an important lesson here is that local commanders had a lot of leeway in how they marked their vehicles. Many cases letters authorizing deviations from the regs were used by various units and their numbering systems would appear not to conform even though they were legit arrangements. Individual commands often supplemented the Army Regs with approved by HQ Army supplements which would change marking procedures from the manual in that commands vehicles. Often when neighboring units had very similar markings per the reg they would arrive at a memorandum of agreement to mark one unit's vehicle differently enough to avoid confusion. _________________ Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 54 M37, 66 M101A1, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, 47Bantam T3-C & 5? M100
Mjeeps photo album: http://www.willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules.php?set_albumName=Wes-Knettle&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php |
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PaulB Member
Joined: Jul 15, 2006 Posts: 78 Location: Kentucky
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