M38A1 Title question.

army_inc · Post by **army_inc** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:19 pm

I've got two M38A1 Titles and only need one. Looking to sell the other one. What is a good price to expect for it? I've seen them for sale, but can't remember prices. Any opinions? Thanks guys.

wilfreeman · Post by **wilfreeman** » Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:37 pm

I don't think you can legally sell just the title.

With that said, I have seen them being offered for collecting purposes only - along with matching data plates for the best price. I wouldn't expect more than $150 or so though. Of course that depends on how bad somebody needs a certain title for their collection!

oilleaker1 · Post by **oilleaker1** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:35 am

I see no problem selling a title with data plates and fenderwell tag for 200.00. That is all the ID you need. Who knows if your current Jeep has had it done already. With the treatment the DMV gives us about military vehicles, what they don't know, won't hurt them. If I needed one, I wouldn't hesitate. Sell it with no quams in my opinion. If you are going to scrap a vehicle, they want a title with it now. So, cut it all up and it's scrap metal piles, no title needed. What a joke they have turned things into. If your vehicle is stolen, that's what they are going to do anyway, so how are they stopping that with the title requirement???????? I appreciate your honest offer to other Jeep guys! John

army_inc · Post by **army_inc** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:06 am

Well, I think I've worked it out with the gentleman and he is going to trade me basically brake shoes and wheel cylinders for my jeep for the title. So I've got no complaints here! I don't have the data plates or anything else. It's just the title.

wilfreeman · Post by **wilfreeman** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:09 pm

Yeah, the data plates are like the VIN plate on a normal car, and they might have been moved from a different vehicle already. I agree - why not save and re-use them (even if it is being re-used by another MV collector!) I know there are a bunch out there without titles. I happen to have a set of plates and a (somewhat) clear title that I don't need now (Jeep body was scrapped and I still have the chassis). I also have a parts Jeep that is still about 75% complete that I am getting ready to sell (with a clear title and plates).

BUT, sooner or later, somebody might have a problem with it (not in our group I hope) - the data plates are the same thing as the VIN plate on a normal car since our Jeeps (M38a1s) don't have any other numbers like the MBs, GPWs and M38s frame tags. And removing and reusing a VIN tag is illegal.

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for exchanging plates and titles!

Post by **wesk** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:42 pm

I try to avoid the use of the two words "Legal" & "Illegal" in a sentence. It can lead one to believe the statement is all inclusive. Each state has it's own interpretation of those two words when they accompany a change in vehicle ID. In most states swapping ID (VIN)(Data) plates will cause some repercussions. On modern cars that are being stolen and recycled with a new ID the system can take care of them. In the antique / classic hobby most states and enforcement agencies have some latitude.

Bottom line is there is no reason for us to debate just how legal or illegal any act is. A simple heads up to a member to use caution is all that is necessary.

Now for personal testimony I have a very close friend that bought a MB from Arizona. When he went to title it here in Wisconsin and the DMV ran the serial number lo and behold that MB serial number was already titled here in Wisconsin. The DMV seized all of my friend's paperwork including the valid Arizona title and it took two months to clear it up. Turned out the guy in Arizona used the body and the dash serail plate to restore the MB my friend bought from him. He sold the frame to a guy and that frame ended up under the other Wisconsin MB and that frame number was used to title that jeep based on a Bill of Sale fro the frame which specified that serial number.

The moral of this story is if you wish to dabble in plate and title swaps do a little research to determine where the plates and title are. For example: if you are going to buy a title and no plates come with it you should make a strong effort to determine where the plates went. Like wise if you buy a pair of plates make a strong effort to determine what became of the title that belonged with them. And if you only buy one plate make sure you make a strong effort to determine what became of the other plate and the title. When you do not have all three (dash data plate, wheelhouse patent plate & title) then you are the one at risk to at the least not be able to title your new resto or at the worst have your new resto seized..

oilleaker1 · Post by **oilleaker1** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:04 am

Well said Wes. When I was trying to get a title here in SD, for my '47 Jeep Pickup, the DMV told me to run the vin numbers of the parts vehicles various pieces. frame on one, cab on the other, and possibly the engine #. If any of the #'s came up stolen, previously titled, or salvage titled, then we had a problem. ( you have to pay a fee for the search)If not a problem, then they wanted all bill of sales, and receipts and then when completed and inspected, they would allow me to apply for a title but I had to pay 3% on all receipts. I ended up buying a '48 pickup with a title and went that way. Like you said, a clean titled vehicle from the actual owner with all ID tags is the way to go for buying a title. It becomes your vehicles ID and the old one goes away.

army_inc · Post by **army_inc** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:18 am

Well, I would just like to help this gentleman out the right way. So basically I should take the title to DMV and make sure it's clean and clear, get it transfered over into my name (I got it with a parts jeep) and then just send it his way if it all comes back clean and clear. That way, he will be in the clear for the number (at least on my end and the Virginia end, Texas may be different).

oilleaker1 · Post by **oilleaker1** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:26 am

That would be the best honest way to do it. You would stop most of his problems that way. He can buy new data plates and fenderwell tag and then stamp them with your clear and clean #, but the old tags that you don't have may be somewhere else????????? That could be a problem. A nationwide search may turn the tags up elsewhere. Good luck with your trade. John

army_inc · Post by **army_inc** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:28 am

oilleaker1 wrote:That would be the best honest way to do it.

That's what I'm trying to do. I don't want to rip anyone off. It's just not in my nature. Plus I believe Karma is a.... we all know how the saying goes.

army_inc · Post by **army_inc** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:37 am

ALso, one thing I forgot to mention, There is the letter "A" at the end of the VIN/Tag number. Is this normal?

Post by **wesk** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:48 am

No the A is not common.

With no original serial tags the risk will always be there that someday a jeep with those tags will meet that title in a DMV office and that's where the trouble starts. The best CYA there is to get an affidavit from the guy who's name is on the current title that the tags were lost or destroyed.

army_inc · Post by **army_inc** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:55 am

Is there a Frame tag, and if so, where would it be? I have the frame, but the gentleman said the body was shot and didn't bring it. I'll try to email him and see if they have disposed of the body yet... I hope not for this case.

Post by **wesk** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:01 am

Frame tags were not used on M38, M38A1, M170 series jeeps. The two tags on the tub were all you get. Occasionally you will come across one with a serial number stamped on the frame after the jeep left Willys and this was not uncommon for military depot rebuilds and Canadian jeeps. Frame stampings won't help if the original tags ever show up.

rgmutchler · Post by **rgmutchler** » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:37 am

If you are supplying a title and data plates or a data plate that matches the title to someone in Texas there is a problem. I don't know what other states do but in Texas any vehicle prior to 1955 is titled by the engine number, not the data plate numbers. Your data plates on an M38 might all match but if the engine number stamped on the engine above the water pump is different then your title is worthless. That is not to say that in a small tax office you might get away with it but as far as state law is concerned the number that identifies the vehicle is the engine number. Tell your buyer in Texas for the title to call the Motor Vehicle Division in Waco and they will tell him exactly what is needed. One option is to use a bill of sale and get a bonded title. Another option in Texas that will work if you are in a small county with acess to the County Judge is to make a petition to the county court and the Judge can then issue an order to the MVD to issue a title for the vehicle. MVD will recognize the order of the court. This will eliminate the bonded title route. I am surprised by the posts here about people that have restored a vehicle without a title or don't want to talk to the agency that is responsible for issuing titles. I have found that if you talk to individual tax offices in the counties you will get many different answers but if you call MVD and talk to them things are many times easier. Of course I am only speaking about Texas, I haven't dealt with other states.