M38 Early Ross Steering Gear Box

Post by **wesk** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:00 am

You have jumped into the middle of an alignment game that actually starts with the tub to frame. This is why it always helps to photograph all fitting positions and document all bolt lengths and washer use as well as all spacers found.

Not knowing the background of all your present and past repair actions we cannot offer accurate advice. Suffice it to say that when you find alignment issues like these then try spacers and shims to make the steering unit fit properly. If it becomes to difficult you may have to make adjustments to tub alignment.

Unfortunately the thing you need most is not available. The factory blueprints that pertain to your issues.

RonD2 · Post by **RonD2** » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:29 am

Thanks Wes, I was just hoping for a photo and/or better description with dimensions of the SPACER. I might need to use one and would rather use something original or close to original rather than washer(s).

The previous owner mated the tub and frame. I measured the frame before I bought it; it's square and within spec. No reason to think anything is seriously out of whack with either frame or body, but it's obviously not as good as the day it left Toledo.

As mentioned above, when I took the column and box out I didn't notice any binding. Unless it was huge it would be easy to miss.

I'm just trying for a safe steering system and thought somebody might have a photo of one they could post or point me at. Either way, I'm not going to bind the column and gearbox when I torque them down.

Thanks.

RonD2 · Post by **RonD2** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:49 pm

There's many things about this hobby that amaze me (including Harold W. 45auto). On page 268 in the ORD9:

Post by **wesk** » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:14 pm

I saw you ask for a photo and dimensions on the previous page of this post. I didn't see where Harold replied to you. Are those photos Harold's or your's?

At any rate using the ruler is helpful but in those photos it is not a very accurate display since the object in each photo is not squared with the ruler.

Here's a much more accurate way to post the dimensions:

Perhaps whomever has the part can type in the dimensions?

All this leaves is a photo showing what it looks like properly installed.

RonD2 · Post by **RonD2** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:54 am

Hi Wes. My apology, I'll fill in the blanks:

The photos and the spacer are mine. A week or so ago Harold and I had a brief PM conversation about spacers (this one and the exhaust pipe bracket spacer). Before I found this one, he thought it was what it is --- a spacer inside the frame for the three steering gear box bolts, to keep the frame from crushing when the bolts are torqued down. How he knew this I don't know, but he nailed it. Prior to our conversation, when I had my box bolts out I noticed what I thought were three individual sleeves inside the frame, one inside each of the three bolt holes. It never occurred to me I was looking at one part inside the frame -- this spacer. I was still thinking (and looking) outside the frame for this spacer.

Anyway, I kept looking for one, and couldn't believe it when I happened to find it listed on AJP's web site, but no photo. I had a few other parts to order, so instead of calling George and waste his time asking silly questions about it, I went ahead and just bought one (gotta pay to play!). For $12, it was worth curing my curiosity.

I can take better photos and/or fill in the measurements. What I can't figure out is why this part was even stocked by the Army? I can't see how it could be easily changed in the field --- and haven't tried. Mine is in good shape. Even though I bought one, I'm very thankful I don't need it!

And it never ceases to amaze me when I open a brand new part that was packaged 3 years before I was born! Remind me to thank those visionary businessmen that gathered and kept this stuff safe for more than six decades!

Post by **wesk** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:14 am

A lot of what may appear to magical engineering stunts are usually just applied common sense. Anytime we run bolts straight thru a boxed in structure and use a nut or nut plate on the outside of the box you will eventually crush the box by over tightening those bolts. Another example of this are the bushings used in the hat channels to avoid crushing the channels when you rebuild your floor and leave the wood out of the hat channels.

Here is how the spacer is installed & removed:

For the dimensions just list them A thru I here and I will update the photo.

RonD2 · Post by **RonD2** » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:59 pm

Here you go Wes:

(inch, not metric)

A: .665
B: .90
C: 1.5
D: .825
E: 1.0
F: .70
G: 2.675
H: 4.35
I: .275
J: 2.565

I added measurement "J", the overall "vertical" height of the piece (counterpart to "H" the overall "horizontal" width of the piece), best illustrated in the left-hand photo. Figured it might be useful.

Thanks!

Post by **wesk** » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:01 am

Keith Buckley to the Rescue!!!

For the full size photo go here:

http://willysmjeeps.com/v2/modules/gall ... cer_Sm.jpg

RonD2 · Post by **RonD2** » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:04 pm

I'm sure glad he did!

That's a great old engineering drawing! How that paper survived this long is beyond me!

It's the first engineering drawing I recall ever seeing posted here. In the last 5 years or so I've looked over a ton and a half of posts on countless topics in this forum and don't recall hearing about Mr. Buckley before today. Maybe I missed it? I see his name prominently credited in the M38 Reference Guide (along with you, Harold W 45auto, and many others), but don't recall seeing him posting in the forum. At least not with a handle I recognize.

For those of us out here wondering like I am, can you fill us in on who he is please? Or maybe he will?

It seems to me that anybody who has Willys Overland engineering drawings is a tremendous asset to the knowledge base!

The M38 Reference Guide credits quite a few names that contributed to that great resource --- my thanks to all of you!

Post by **wesk** » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:53 am

Mr Buckley has been at this for a score or so years. He managed to be in Toledo when the factory was being cleaned out and piles of old documents and drawings were being auctioned off many years ago. He has helped this site out very often. He is a busy man and when he notices an urgent need to resolve a mystery we were all unable to resolve he'll pop in with a historical document or drawing.

I try to not bother him on a daily basis. He always comes thru when I ask so I practice what I preach. "Do all your own research first then when no answer avails itself to you ask here!" The Willys military jeeps are but a very small piece of his interest in Willys.

In the case of this spacer he saw the post and emailed me the drawing, which I sized and loaded to his album.

Over the last 15 or so years he has provided factory BOM's and Blueprints at least 30 or so times.

His username is WillysMotors

WillysMotors · Post by **WillysMotors** » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:26 am

Ron - yes, I have several screen names online but within the last few years have started to post under my real name, Keith Buckley.

I think Wes did a pretty good job of describing my involvement in the hobby. I've spent the last 40 years tracking down the obscure details and documents that made their way into the public domain between 1975 and 1985.

The significance of 1975 was around when the Willys administration building was cleaned out and torn down, and the early 80's was when Renault chose to dispose of many outdated records after the bogus CJ5 rollover debacle.

There are about a dozen guys behind the scenes, not just me.

The timing of your note was interesting. I read it while standing on the bow of the Mighty Mo facing the Arizona Memorial. I was thinking of Major Ben decided to visit this site to see if he was still actively posting.

I don't get much time to visit web sites or play with Jeeps anymore, but I still try.

I respect the work that Wes and Ryan put into this site on a daily basis and try to pitch in when I can.

mdainsd · Post by **mdainsd** » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:18 pm

I did more investigation into the issue of the material that goes around the steering column jacket to dash board. No metal shims are called out in the parts list for MB or M38.

The part number in question is WO-A1277. In the parts list, ORG 9 SNL G503. for the MB this shows up under the section 1405 (pg 156) for "brackets".

Researching the A1277 drawing the initial release it has rubber as the material. In early 1942 the drawing was revised, due to the shortage of rubber, to: "Webbing 5 lg 1 1/2 wide 1/8 thk". Note: at the same time the rubber hood blocks, shifter boot and the transfer case lever boots where changed to alternate materials. Wood and leather in these instances. My March 42 MB still has its original rubber bushing in place, rock hard but in place, same for the rubber hood blocks.

Forward to the M38, referring to ORG 9 SNL G740, Group 1401 Steering controls, pg 262 we see: WO-A1277 - BUSHING, webbing 5 lg 1 1/2 wide 1/8 thk (jacket support clamp).

M38A1 ORG 9 SNL G758 page 257 same call out: WO-A1277 - BUSHING, webbing 5 lg 1 1/2 wide 1/8 thk (jacket support clamp).

Interestingly Willys part number: WO-A1277 continued as webbing all the way through to 1971 CJ-5s

So webbing as found by some posters on their M38 is correct. There is no mention of metal shims in any of the PLs. Wes posted a paragraph about installing "Shims" from the manual. It doesn't say metal shim and I have yet to see a part number for these "metal shims".