M38 Back Seat Upper Cushion Size

[Naugha]

Frustration ensued as I began to assemble my M38 rear seat upper cushion. The springs I purchased last year as used 'M38/M38A1' are much longer than my WeeBee Webbing M38 rear/top seat cover.

I found an old thread where a WeeBee >cushion< may have been shorter than proper for the M38 and looked at a bunch of M38 backseat pics, but am not sure which of several possibilities are in play:

*The old cushion is off something incompatible with a M38?
*The WeeBee seat cover is too short even though they have had a decade to resolve the issue mentioned in the old thread.
*They sent me the wrong cover or I ordered the wrong covers (but, nope, I checked).

Also... I looked at the ad for the covers... and the jeep shown has an upper cushion which is not as wide as originals shown in old pics. The WeeBee covers are great looking but the one cover doesn't fit.

I could just cut out a spring section but the cover would still be too narrow at the top and bottom for attachment to the seat frame.

Any thoughts before I contact the two suppliers??

*** I have exceeded my 20 pic album size and will use Google Photos to give folks a look at the problem.


https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... FLcVhBSFVB

[OKCM38CDN]

If I remember correctly, the covers connect to the frame of the seat, NOT to the springs... The springs are held in place with the covers and they use Screw and special washers to connect to the frame... Those are labeled #4 in your exploded view of the seat...

They connect on the front and rear of the seat bottom and top and bottom of the seat back...

[Naugha]

I attached the old canvas which is in good condition to the springs as an extra layer to stiffen the cushion..... did that for the bottom also which worked fine even with the extra fabric.

The thing is ... no matter how much I tug & tuck , the top cushion is just too darn big for the new cover by almost two inches.... and it’s too short vertically to attach to the frame.

It’s like trying to fit a size 12 foot into a size 8 shoe.

Old war pics in the albums show the M38 with a ‘big’ upper cushion that fills up the top part of the frame from edge to edge... but the ebay site that sold the WeeBee covers (set of six) shows a rear top cushion that only stretches between the outer frame ‘pipes’.

I hope to get a clearer idea of the problem before pointing fingers .... and it could very well be something I have done wrong.

[Mike_B]

I have an original (M38/M38A1) rear seat back spring with it's canvas trim. The canvas is stamped/marked 673581 RRAD.

For comparison, I measured my rear seat back springs (which are laying loose) and they are about 31-1/2" across the top, 32-1/2" across the bottom edge and it's about 2" thick.

Hope this helps.

Mike B

[wesk]

I believe this is the seat being discussed.



This would be a good time for Naugha to post a few photos of his rear seat that illustrate the problems he has listed. He might even measure the items and post the measurements here as well.

Mike B what are the dimensions of your canvas?

[Mike_B]

Mike B what are the dimensions of your canvas?

The canvas is in very poor condition and is dry rot so it's hard to get it to lay flat without it tearing, It came off of the seat spring that I posted the measurements from. Do you need different measurements? I can email you pictures if needed.

Mike B

[wesk]

I can email you pictures if needed.

That will work.

[Naugha]

The old (NOS?) rear seat cushions I bought are in good condition but I thought I wanted matching fabric colors front & back. I used ads for the seats Wes posted to guide my rear seat rebuild..... they were being sold last year ($500) probably should have bought one.

Maybe I will mount the old rear seat top cushion with the old canvas to my frame ... the frame mounting holes are clearly visible .... 5 top / 5 bottom.

If the look is correct maybe WeeBee could make me a cover that fits and matches the set color.

Yeah, I should have bought rear seats with the ridges in the bottom ... maybe my shop press and a ballpene hammer can fix the problem

Wes, I linked a bunch of pics about the seat to my Google Photo album and can add more. Should I post them into my album here? I have exceeded the 20 pic guideline and have a ton of stuff I took/am taking during the rebuild.

I do use batch reduction in PhotoShop to get multiple pics down to the 250k range which helps storage and bandwidth issues.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... FLcVhBSFVB

[4x4M38]

Don,
Many folks have way more than 20 pics in their albums. It’s not the number of photos, it’s the size. Reduce the size of your photos (file size) and they should post just fine.

[wesk]

Bob,

As stated the 20 is a guide. However it is best to always reduce photo sizes to the 200K range. Main thing was to keep the unnecessary photos out of the albums.

That first link to your google photos did not work last night.

I notice you bought the cover in question off Ebay. I would communicate your issue with Wee Bee Webbing to make sure that ebay cover actually came from them.

[Naugha]

I will check with WeeBee. The old top cushion fits my frame like a glove. The new cover is a good 2" short in width and 1.25" too narrow top to bottom rail. Can I conclude that this cushion is 'appropriate' for a M38 seat but I need to find the proper cover?

New cover on top (short) / Original takeoff cover below (darker. fits cushion & frame)

New cover with tag on top.

Old takeoff cover on top / new cover on bottom takeoff cushion fits great
Yeah, I did not properly attach the sides of the lower cushion to the springs with staples as suggested in the NOS rear seat pics and as found on the takeoff cushion I bought on ebay.... fix it later.

Metal tag found on old top cushion

Old top cushion attached/ five screws top & bottom as suggested by holes in the takeoff canvas.

[wesk]

It's unfortunate you didn't label your photos indicating which seat and which covers are installed.

Here's an old post of mine on the G503 board:

Post by Wes K » Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:02 am

MB 32.5"
M38/M38A1 35.5"
Wes K
45 MB, 51 M38, 60 CJ3B, 60 CJ5, 76 DJ5D, Bantam T3-C MVPA22099

Sounds about like the 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" difference you have. Could be that cover you have belongs on an MB. I see the WeeBee tag but no part number info. I thought you found the cover in question on Ebay above but then you say you verified your order. Do you have anything from WeeBee with a part number for that cover?

[Naugha]

I added additional info to the pics .... see preceding response.

The darker canvas came on the takeoff cushion I bought on ebay and fits the seat frame in a way similar to a war pic of new M38’s lined up in rows. In the pic, the M38 top rear seat cushion extends all the way across the top frame and mostly covers the tubular rails.

The pic and thread were from a 2012 (I think) response Wes made to a fellow who had a WeeBee >cushion< that was too short .... which may be the other side of my problem with an original M38/M38A1 cushion that is too BIG for a WeeBee cover.

Anyway, I am waiting for a response from the ebay seller .... which I think may actually have been WeeBee Webbing because their business model description was the same and their ebay name was a contraction of the owner’s name ..... long name/ starts with a P..... I explained the situation, asked the seller to confirm his identity, and asked if he could make me what I think to be the proper size cover if I sent him the old canvas. We shall see.

I now think the most important thing here are those NOS rear seats pics Wes posted .... the ones I used to guide my rear seat rebuild. I think the ID sticker does suggest they went on a M38.... so....

Can those NOS seats be considered a ‘Type Specimen’, which when dissected ,will give folks a very good idea about how to recreate a M38 part that (my opinion) is like one of the rare toe bones you just can’t find for a composite fossil skeleton.

[Naugha]

Here is the reply from >dpizz< via ebay.... with his permission.

“Don,
I've been at this a long time. My pattern was taken from an NOS seat assembly that I purchased from Phil Nelson in 1975 for my first M38. In order for the seat to back to slide within the hooks into the stowed position, the cushion and cover is intentionally designed to be short of the vertical tubes, with a good reveal of the pan showing, to allow clearance of the seat hooks. See attached photos of M38s on the roof of the factory, an NOS seat assembly and a manual pic. Put that cover in the hot sunshine for about 30 minutes, start installation with the center screw, then use an awl to stab the canvas short of the next hole (left or right) and leverage the fabric over. Canvas can shrink up to 10% from sitting. Relaxing it in the sunshine will easily allow the cover to stretch about 2 inches during install.”

Second response

“Don,
Feel free to share my response. When this question comes up, and I mention seat hook clearance, most people reply with "what seat hooks?". A CJ cushion extends the full width of the frame. Most of these perceived fit problems are based on the erroneous belief that the cushion and cover should extend the full width, as on the CJ seat; Professional upholsterers are the worst for fostering this notion.”

* Tomorrow will be a sunny day here in Ocala, Fl.

[Naugha]

Amazing.
Pics first/ Details later.
Yes, you can fit a size 12 foot into a size 8 canvas shoe.



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I took off the old canvas before attaching the new WeeBee Webbing cover. See pics in first part of thread to see how much the new canvas stretched.