serial no. question

fredfender · Post by **fredfender** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:19 pm

Need Help about MD serial no. How come in 1952 the year I am looking
at, They do not run in any consecutive order. I see them from 10000 up
into the 70000 for that year. Could someone explain why?
Thanks
Fred

4x4M38 · Post by **4x4M38** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:56 pm

Fred,
Dash or tub serial number or motor?

Post by **wesk** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:19 pm

There are two ways to organize a serial list type data base.

1-By date of manufacture or registration shown date of manufacture.

2-By consecutive serial numbers. (My preferred method)

The Database I posted to our downloads page came from several sources (collections) and most were organized by year without any evidence of proof on the year listed.

In the real world they came from Willys in consecutive serials except when a jeep got sidelined for a production issue and fails to roll thru the acceptance door the same month as the rest of it's serial number neighbors. There are no 5 or 6 year delays. Those serials which do not follow sequence are there because the caretaker of the list failed to ask for proof of date of delivery when a lister wanted to add his jeeps based on the year shown on the title which has been proven over & over to be totally unreliable.

When someone brings me the survey sheet on their jeep and they tell me the dash tag is missing but the title says 1955 and I look at their patent plate serial and it's clearly a 1952 serial number then I list it as a 52.

The M38A1 database we have loaded is very old and as I said came from many sources. I have been vetting the original M38A1.com serial list for a couple of years and some day soon I hope to post it. It is a much larger database and I will have gotten rid of all the year vs serial errors.

They do not run in any consecutive order.

Actually they do run in consecutive order but there are many individual units that were left in a year position that their serial did not match. My advice to you is to read past those two or three that don't follow in any certain area of the serial list a proper sequence and concentrate on the those that do. As I get more time I will finish cleaning that 2nd serial list up and repost it.

Post by **wesk** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:31 pm

Better yet since I only loaded that unrefined serial list because so many members insisted I load it before I cleansed it, I have removed it from our Downloads section. I will not repost it until I have finished refining it.

4x4M38 · Post by **4x4M38** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:32 pm

Good thing I snagged a copy!

lol!

45auto · Post by **45auto** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:21 pm

To expand on Wes's post---In the database I maintain, There are serial numbers through out the database that look out of place only to find out later, as serial numbers are added, that there is a group of serial numbers out of place. Clearly noting something was taking place. Nothing as great as you are talking about but enough to take notice. So, i tend to keep them with a ? mark by them, skipping over them until further data supports their place. Some are clearly out of place and it takes an analytical eye to pull out useful information. The database can only be considered as a "working database" that is in a constance state of change. It is maintain in a rather expensive program where data can be sorted on anything that looks like a pattern, including or excluding data that may get in the way of what you are looking for.

It is important if you own a Jeep with complete serial number data, to add it to Wes's database. Its this data that creates "corner stones" that can be compare to other less complete data. Since owners of complete serial numbers do not need to "fill in any blanks" they tend not to get sent in. If you data is lacking, send in what you have. A serial number match to any other bit of data can open up a block information. That's how a block of Navy See Bee M38A1s show up. All the owners reported was the rear fender well plate along with the See Bee logo on the side. Several show up this way very close in serial number. They were also Marine Corps green.

Since a lot of data we seek is no longer available, recreating it is our only option. I just added some 10+ serial numbers form a 1960s surplus catalog where the DoD listed serial number, year, registration number and engine serial number. I tried to buy the catalog but it sold for a tick over $50. Somebody now has 35 or more great serial number data!!

I'll end with--do not underestimate the importance of your serial number data---it just might be the data needed to open up a block of information!!

.

4x4M38 · Post by **4x4M38** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:34 am

Hello Harold,
I sent you a pm.

fredfender · Post by **fredfender** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:32 pm

Thanks Wes
The info was much helpful. THis might be out of ignorance could you
make the general statement that the serial n0. range for all 1952M38-A1
would be 1xxx to 7xxxx and 1953 7xxxx- not sure. Imight submit some no.
for your file if I can find them. I do not presently have a M38A1.I think you
are doing a great service trying to preserve and document the no.Thanks

Many thanks
Fred

Post by **wesk** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:30 pm

Willys started each model's serial number system with the first serial number being 10001. 00001 thru 10,000 do not exist for the M38, M38A1, M170, M606, M606A2, M606A3 or M715.

There is no Willys or Kaiser document that tells me where the serials ended at the end of each years production. That information is gleaned from the submitted list of serials that have the dash and patent serial plates installed.

Based on the submitted info our best guess on yearly serial cutoffs based on the calendar years Jan 1 thru Dec 31 and not model year Oct 1 thru Sep 30.

1952 Start MD10001

Ending yearly serials

1952 35667
1953 69531
1954 78343
1955 85428 (We believe production was temporarily suspended in May 55)
1956 Feb MD 57144-10001 thru Jun 57144-14019 all NEKAF
1957 - 1964 was sporadic export production and several USMC/USN contracts.
1965 - 1966 No known production
1967 - 1971 M38A1 CDN2 & CDN3 production.

When you try to cross reference these total with available factory production records you are forced to deal with the only two know lists and the two lists do not agree.

There is John Latham's attempt to source & compile all know production schedules from 1941 thru 1990. I'll list his M38A1 figures only here:

1952 - 29,769
1953 - 29,769
1954 - 9,580
1955 - 8,826
1956 - 3,166
1957 - 1,050
1958 - 780
1959 - 1,273
1960 - 2,673
1961 - 434
1962 - 2,957
1963 - 4,369
1964 - 2,622
1965 - 578
1966 - 320
1967 - 840
1968 - 1,906
1969 - 0
1970 - 0
1971 - 596
1972 & on 0

The other list lacked an authors name but it was found in the Toledo archives 1954 production records by Ron Szymanski and it covered all military production 1941 thru 1953.

1952 - 23,416
1953 - 33,803

WillysMotors · Post by **WillysMotors** » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:38 pm

I believe Wes's comments are correct. I might add that the temporary delay in M38A1 production was after the Kaiser purchase in Oct 1954, and the M38A1 production was slowed down while they produced more M170's instead. Being a remote owner in Oakland, CA, Kaiser kept much more detailed comprehensive daily production reports than Willys did.

NEKAF4EVER · Post by **NEKAF4EVER** » Fri May 25, 2018 2:06 pm

I have some new information to share.
At this moment there are about 2800 NEKAF serial numbers in my database starting with 57144-10001 in 1955 and ending with 57144-19832 in 1960.
However, most 1962 Nekafs do have frame numbers in the lower MD197** range....

Regards,

Harold Bergers
The Netherlands

NEKAF4EVER · Post by **NEKAF4EVER** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:19 pm

Here some new additions to John Latham's M38A1 list.
NEKAF units are based on official information.

1955 - 8,826 (1955: 998 by NEKAF)
1956 - 3,166 (1956: 2495 by NEKAF)
1957 - 1,050 (1957: 1705 by NEKAF)
1958 - 780 (1958: 488 by NEKAF)